Genoa faction units??

[mattycraig1]

Im just curious, the republic of Genoa is described as having strong millita units, yet I have checked the building browser and all they get in a city is urban spear millita,crossbow millita and cavalry millita.....to me that doesnt exactlly scream powerful millita units Am I missing something or is that really the only units that Genoa can get in its cities?

[Migey]

I may be wrong but i believe that Italian militias have higher stats then others? I believe if you compare the urban spear militias stats to say, Englands spear militias, they would be higher.

I think. I played SS a long time ago, and im only just now trying to play 6.4 - running into a few minor problems. So i retain the right to be wrong.

[Serbian Hussar]

The description refers to the vanilla. In SS many factions have Urban Spear Millitia now. That has left Venice and Genoa in some disadvantage. But cavalry is ok for millitia ones and the crossbowmen are powerfull, plenty and cheap. So in early era, Genoa is not weak at all. Later you get Pikemen Millitia and Broken Lancers cavalry and infantry in cities. Not to mention Famiglia Ducale. Plus you have great range of mercenaries like Swiss Pikemen, Swiss Armoured Pikemen, Swiss Halberdiers, Dopelsoldner,...

[mattycraig1]

Your right, urban spear miltias have higher stats but i was kinda hoping for pike/halberd milita too.....it seems a little crazy to play most my italian campaign with just urban spearmen XD

[delra]

Their city roster is pretty crappy to be honest. Spears are good, yes, but average armored swords will beat them. And crossbows can't operate on the walls, so you basically have naked cities throughout the game - while for example Templars can train heavy infantry, heavy assault and heavy cavalry everywhere from chapter houses and other buildings.

Those militias, especially crossbow/pavise are very good early on in the field but as soon as castle troops start appearing you're going to be very disappointed with what your cities can field.

[mattycraig1]

@ Hussar, thank you for that info, any rough dates for pikes? and does genoa get halberds?

[mattycraig1]

@delra, so is the genoa campaign harder as you progress into the later years?

[Serbian Hussar]

Here, you can check everything in this site: http://www.pressdat.com/mtw2/Milan/Milan.html

[mattycraig1]

thank you for the quick reply

[Lazy]

I cannot look it up here, does someone know the shooting-range difference between
Genoese Crossbow Militia and Genoese Crossbowmen?
I always manage to defend my ranged units so I can ignore defence/attack(melee)/moral stats...
Is there an any difference in ranged combat? acccuracy or range or blabla ?
Usually I never build the Genoese Crossbowmen because of higher upkeep...

[Serbian Hussar]

Genoese Crossbowmen have the range of 145 meters, whike Genoese Crossbow Millitia have 140 meters. Reload time is the same, and Genoese Crossbowmen are better in melee (3 to 2, and quicker animation) and have better moral (11 to 9) and defence skill (3 to 2). You can find this in export_descr_unit.txt.
In my opinion these units should be merged into one and given higher stats.

[Ichon]

Mostly I'd like Genoa crossbow's to have greater range. Effective range of the crossbow was only slightly lower than longbow. Probably 2 different versions is ok but more widely spaced in the timeline. Earlier version similar to current just with more range and a later version with much higher attack, and slightly longer range similar to longbows.

The main issue with Genoa roster now is that aside from Familia Ducale you would never know Genoa had some of the best plate armored heavy infantry of the era. Condottierri should be much more powerful albeit with the weakest morale of any elite unit and a very high price. Genoa/Milan relying on militias and crossbowmen in the early era seems appropriate but in later eras as single families come to control the Republic and later Milan the nobility play much greater role in the state and wars which means aside from the crossbowmen the militias fail to improve much as that would challenge the power of the families. However mercenaries play a much larger role as well as Familia Ducale infantry and cavalry. Eventually near the end of the the SS timeline (1500s) the various Italian state recognized that a professional military was required to match the French and Spanish systems but until then the Italians usually were sort of always a step ahead or behind. IE- powerful militias for the early era, becomes more noble families and mercenaries fighting in the 1400-1550 era while most of the rest of Europe is beginning to develop the start of national armies in fits and starts. 1300-1500 Italian militias mixed with the great families forces and mercenaries defeated many of the powers of that period. Soon after 1500s began there was a belated recognition that condottierri can't match gendarmes and other such troops types in discipline and staying power as well as being too expensive for their value. So a very late start to national armies as the states can't decide who is responsible for the maintaining any standing armies as that responsibility becomes the power the entire state rests on. So in the later eras(1600s) you see Italians losing many battles against French, Spanish, and even Germans as they can't organize professional forces of the same quality.

[delra]

And I'd want them to work on the walls. That's their main weakness. You can't pack your city with xbows and dare enemy to attack it if your crossbowmen are unhistorically weak shooting from the walls and extremely weak compared to normal archers.

This means that all factions that can train archers from cities are superior in city defence, while factions like Genoa or Venice are better in the field.

So, if it's late game, you want to get your stack out of the city and fight in the field (bridge preferably) so you can actually use your superior crossbowmen. It isn't harder, it's just a bit annoying and causes some extra effort to beat enemy away from your cities.

[Ichon]

I don't know how to get crossbowmen to work shooting out from walls realistically. The archers aren't that effective either from stone walls firing outward. Archers on wood walls firing outward are actually the best. I find crossbowmen still very effective in city fights if you leave a portion of the wall open for the ladders and the crossbowmen occupy another wall at an angle to the attackers. Not every city has the wall angles correct and then putting the crossbows in the streets packed in with pikes/halberdiers is the best option. They take some casualties but the point blank fire is very effective over time.

[delra]

There were a few ideas, one would letting them shoot at higher angle similar to bows (but it's stupid). Another was to model-edit the walls themselves to allow units on them to shoot more freely (but noone knows how to do it).

That's why most people either meet enemy in the field - or turn off ranged units fire until enemy is in the city and can be shot freely from above since there's no battlements on that side.

[Ultra123]

yes you can shoot inwards quite effectively with xbows, and they are very useful defending a side of the gate, you know the old get the enemy to attack one or 2 units on one side of gate and pour xbow fire on those knights inside. knights die super fast to xbows.