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    Default US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    A rather interesting article and analysis, but also one that is rather troubling to read. I really don't understand the logic behind giving more weapons and possibly stationing troops in Georgia. It makes no sense. First off, why antagonise Russia for no reason - a country which has been helping NATO with transport of materials and soldiers to Afghanistan - and has cooperated more with the West in international organisation. Second, Saakashvili is losing legitimacy and support in Georgia, opposition groups are getting more organised and feisty. Come election day, he could be ousted and his group of cronies be replaced with another group.

    In my view, US is playing a dangerous game by putting forth these suggestions. Putting troops near a recent war zone, behind which are Russian troops creates a dangerous atmosphere and seems to be like an episode from the worst times of the Cold War. Not to mention, there are already Russian troops stationed in Armenia, and with all this it's a very dangerous mix, and add a little bit of Iran there, and you have yourself a potential to trigger a world war. What do people think about this? Why is US thinking about making such a potentially dangerous move? Should it sacrifice normal relations with Russia with having a deeper military partnership with big old Georgia?

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    U.S. Senators Recommend Stationing Troops In Georgia
    October 13, 2011 - 4:39pm, by Joshua Kucera The Bug Pit Georgia Russia U.S.
    A Washington task force headed by two U.S. senators has released a report on Georgia and its relations with the U.S. and Europe, "Georgia in the West: A Policy Road Map to Georgia's Euro-Atlantic Future." It makes a variety of recommendations for U.S., European and Georgian policymakers, including some provocative ones in the security realm:

    -- Propose an international security presence in the occupied territories: As part of an effort to go on the offense diplomatically, the United States should work with its allies to lay out a clear vision of what security arrangements should be in the context of a fully implemented cease-fire agreement: an Abkhazia and South Ossetia in which additional Russian forces and border guards have withdrawn and security is provided by a neutral international security presence working closely with local authorities...

    -- Advance Georgia’s NATO aspirations. US officials should use the NATO summit in Chicago to advance NATO’s commitment to Georgia’s membership aspirations in practical ways, including by adopting a package of intensified cooperation, reiterating that Georgia will become an ally, and making clear that the NATO-Georgia Commission and Georgia’s Annual National Programme are mechanisms through which Georgia can eventually achieve membership...

    -- Bolster the US footprint in Georgia. Georgia’s security strategy is premised on deterrence. Any US presence in Georgia helps to augment that deterrence, and just as importantly, reinforces a psychological sense of security among the population. In the absence of formal security guarantees, the United States should augment a small military footprint associated with its: 1) program to train Georgian forces for coalition operations; 2) support to NATO’s Partnership for Peace Training Center; and 3) facilities and logistics to handle transit of forces and equipment from Afghanistan now and, in smaller numbers, in the future, and to serve as a logistics hub for access to Central Asia.

    -- Normalize military-to-military relations. US officials should normalize military-to-military relations with Georgia, including restarting defensive arms sales and Special Forces training. Any procurement agreements should help Georgia to better defend itself, participate in coalitions operations, and meet NATO Partnership Goals. These efforts should proceed in a manner that makes clear that the US decision is linked to the Georgian government’s continuing commitment to its nonuseof-force pledge; is in coordination with NATO allies to avoid surprises among potentially skeptical allies, and to ensure similar moves by allies who have had traditional defense relationships with Georgia; and ensures transparency in all US defense cooperation with Georgia.

    -- Join the EU Monitoring Mission. The EUMM has won the respect of all actors, including Russia, and is in a position to expand its role to ensure greater transparency along the occupation lines. Working off the precedent of the European Union Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX), the United States should consider participating in the EUMM, along with other third parties.

    Particularly striking is the proposal to station U.S. troops in Georgia as a method of deterrence. On the surface, it seems like an aggressive move, and a reckless one: does the U.S. really want to be the tripwire in Georgia in case Russia does something? And what if Georgia starts something with Russia, and then U.S. troops are in the middle of a war: what do they do? On the other hand, if you accept that those two possibilities are unlikely, then it could be a savvy compromise: Georgians will feel reassured and Russia (possibly) would be deterred and wouldn't consider the U.S. troops there, assuming it's just a token presence, to be a threat. But I really don't know how Russia would react to that. (I'll try to find out.)

    Because in general, the list could be titled "Ways For The U.S. To Antagonize Russia." When I was in Moscow, I met with Yevgeny Buzhinsky, until last year the Russian MoD's top international cooperation official, and asked him what would happen if the U.S. started selling weapons to Georgia:

    "Of course, it would spoil our relations. Georgia is a very special case, and if I were an American decisionmaker, I would give a very low profile to Georgia for the time being... if you want to antagonize Russia, you can forget about transit [i.e. Russia's cooperation on shipping military cargo to Afghanistan]. It will again be a 'Cold Peace.'"

    Buzhinsky was the lead negotiator for Russia when they agreed to let U.S. military supplies transit through Russia or Russian airspace, so his words have some weight. Depending on how you look at his words, they either sound like extortion or like good ol' fashioned Kissingerian hardball politics. I don't know why Russia is so concerned about Georgian weapons, but they are, and Washington has to deal with that.

    Yesterday, the Obama administration's nominee to be ambassador to Russia, Michael McFaul, testified at his confirmation hearing, and when he discussed the "reset," the top dividend he mentioned was Moscow's cooperation on Afghanistan:

    First, through greater engagement with the Russian government, we have expanded our northern supply routes into Afghanistan. This complex network of railways, flight routes, and roads known as the Northern Distribution Network, now accounts for more than half of all the supplies that we send to our soldiers in Afghanistan. Since signing a military transit accord with Russia in 2009, we have flown more than 1,500 flights transporting more than 235,000 personnel through Russia. These transit arrangements are a matter of vital importance to our troops as the transit route through Pakistan becomes more problematic.

    At this report's launch, I asked the authors if losing that cooperation would be worth the gain from the implementation of their recommendations. One of the chairs of the task force, Jeanne Shaheen, a Democratic senator from New Hampshire, answered:

    "I don't think you should look at this as a zero-sum game. We have a reset policy with Russia, we are moving forward there on a variety of issues that are of concern to the United States, where we think we can cooperate. We also have a variety of interests in Georgia, and we need to look at ways in which we can support Georgia's emergence as a strong democracy in that part of the world. We are already helping them in terms of providing training and assistance with respect to their military services, and I think we need to look at our interests in Georgia as a separate issue."

    One the report's lead authors, Frances Burwell of the Atlantic Council, added:

    "The overflights to Afghanistan are in Russia's interest as well. So we need to be clear about when Russia is doing it as a 'favor' to us and when it is in their interest. And I would argue that most of what they are doing is in their interest."

    Burwell could be right, and Moscow could be bluffing on this. I guess there's no way to know. But the protestations that this isn't a zero-sum game ring false. The great majority of Georgia's alleged friends in Washington care about the country only to the extent they can use it as a cudgel to wield against Russia. As the other senatorial chair of the task force, Lindsey Graham said at the launch: "I think they have a view of reconstructing the old Soviet Union in a big way, that we need to challenge." And so, we get into the eternal, unwinnable argument about whether Moscow or Washington is to blame for their poor relations.

    And it's a shame Georgia has put itself in the middle of this, because as a couple of the other task force members eloquently explained, despite Georgia's faults (which the report amply addresses), it is still an inspiring story. For example, Kurt Volker, recently U.S. ambassador to NATO:

    "There are a lot of ways to look at European history. You can look at it as the rise, and decline, and clash of empires. You can look at it as the integration of France and Germany in overcoming centuries of conflict in Europe. But I think the most meaningful way to look at European history is to look at the progress of the idea of governance, the relationship of people to the governments that rule over them. From the initial imposition of governance by might, to the assertion of the divine right of monarchies to rule over others, finally to the proposition that the people have the right to choose the government that rule over them. There has been tremendous progress... from the Magna Carta to the French revolution, the U.S. revolution, French philosophers, the aftermath of World War II and the establishment of democratic institutions in Italy and Germany, to the fall of the Berlin Wall. And what Georgia reminds us... is that as much progress as we've made in this sweep of history, we've never finished the job. There are parts of Europe that have not fully become part of that development, that human progression. Those of us who take pride and satisfaction in how far we've come must not forget that we have this much that lies before us."

    Cynics can roll their eyes at sentiment like that, especially when said by someone in power trying to justify a policy. But it's also true, and it's too bad that Georgia's position as a geopolitical pawn -- a state of affairs in which Washington, Tbilisi and Moscow are all complicit -- has come to overshadow that.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Yeah why not. Its like they can spend more money on escapes like this.
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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Why not? I see no problem.

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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    I'd rather tax dollars were spent in a more productive fashion. But they could get wasted in worse ways. Meh.
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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Great, now we just need to wait a three ways war between Russia, China and US.
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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Access to the Med through the Black Sea and only 150 miles to the Iranian border?

    Yes, please.

    With US forces pulling out of Iraq and A-stan, having a forward logistical base into Central Asia in which the local populace doesn't plant IEDs is a strategic no-brainer.

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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hey Now! View Post
    Why not? I see no problem.
    Want to make Russia an enemy for the US?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotspur View Post
    Access to the Med through the Black Sea and only 150 miles to the Iranian border?

    Yes, please.

    With US forces pulling out of Iraq and A-stan, having a forward logistical base into Central Asia in which the local populace doesn't plant IEDs is a strategic no-brainer.
    It would be strategic no-brainer if at the same time you weren't making Russia your enemy. Georgia is extremely hostile towards Russia, especially Saakashvili, so in effect it's just making more enemies for the US.
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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Russia is going to think twice before acting aggressively there and realizing some dreams of a return of the old USSR. Troops being there doesn't mean automatically that there would be war between the two powers, but it's a strong deterrent.

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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    Want to make Russia an enemy for the US?
    Are they not already? The US and Russia have conflicting interests. I see no problem with pissing Russia off.

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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azoth View Post
    Are they not already? The US and Russia have conflicting interests. I see no problem with pissing Russia off.
    No, if Russia was an enemy right now of the US, things would be very different right now. The fact of the matter is that Russia today, though an adversary of US in some issues, does not have hostile relations with the US. Don't forget Russia is a key transit country used by US and NATO for the Afghan war effort. Russia has supported US's sanctions on countries like Iran, when needed to. So no, Russia is not an enemy, but by doing things like this US can make Russia a real enemy, and I doubt you will like the idea of a military confrontation becoming more and more a reality as a result.


    Quote Originally Posted by spanish_emperor View Post
    Europe needs to secure its pipeline that is not controlled by Russia. Energy demand is going to increase and you can't have Russia controlling all the pipelines can you.
    If Belarus had a revolution against Russian influence the West would have even greater energy security.
    Why does Russia help America in Afghanistan? Because they are also afraid of the rising China and it allows them to regain influence in the region.
    Of course, all of this could develop into a new World War, but that is the risk of playing the new great game of an empire unwilling to admit its decline.

    US needs Georgia to conquer South Ossetia since it is too close to where the pipeline will pass. Georgia tried a few years ago, they will try again and U.S. help will allow this to be successful.
    There are already such energy projects (e.g. Nabucoo) that don't rely on Russia that are being built. Major European countries are on relatively good terms with Russia and don't have hostile relations. There's no need for hostility to be created because of this energy issue. Georgia has no right to "conquer" South Ossetia, besides it has declared that it will never use force again against those two breakaway states. The sane countries here will choose the current energy system over a World War.
    Last edited by Armenum; October 13, 2011 at 08:22 PM.
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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    No, if Russia was an enemy right now of the US, things would be very different right now. The fact of the matter is that Russia today, though an adversary of US in some issues, does not have hostile relations with the US. Don't forget Russia is a key transit country used by US and NATO for the Afghan war effort. Russia has supported US's sanctions on countries like Iran, when needed to. So no, Russia is not an enemy, but by doing things like this US can make Russia a real enemy, and I doubt you will like the idea of a military confrontation becoming more and more a reality as a result.
    Military confrontation? Nothing will happen. Russia isn't dumb enough to want to start a war. Even though Russia likes to fly high altitude bombers and violate the air spaces of various countries, nothing happens. Russia has its own intentions, and the US has theres.

    Hotspur made a very good point about a base there though, and i would support it.

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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azoth View Post
    Are they not already? The US and Russia have conflicting interests. I see no problem with pissing Russia off.
    i see the brainwashed north american masses are very docile

    "derp derp russia enemy!"

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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
    i see the brainwashed north american masses are very docile

    "derp derp russia enemy!"
    Do i hate Rrussia? No. I just don't see the US and Russia ever really being friends due to conflicting interests and goals. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the US and Russia will be good friends oen day. Right now though, i just don't see it happening.

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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    It would be strategic no-brainer if at the same time you weren't making Russia your enemy.
    It's a two sided coin. Russia has nothing to complain about, they just will.

    Do you ever bother to ask the same question when Russia is supporting rogue regimes? I mean, really...
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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    It would be strategic no-brainer if at the same time you weren't making Russia your enemy. Georgia is extremely hostile towards Russia, especially Saakashvili, so in effect it's just making more enemies for the US.
    US interests in Georgia have far more to do with Central Asia than with Russia. The simple fact is that the US has bigger fish to fry (geopolitically speaking). Russia isn't going to destabilize Israel or threaten the US' energy supply.

  16. #16

    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    It makes no sense. First off, why antagonise Russia for no reason - a country which has been helping NATO with transport of materials and soldiers to Afghanistan - and has cooperated more with the West in international organisation.
    Europe needs to secure its pipeline that is not controlled by Russia. Energy demand is going to increase and you can't have Russia controlling all the pipelines can you.
    If Belarus had a revolution against Russian influence the West would have even greater energy security.
    Why does Russia help America in Afghanistan? Because they are also afraid of the rising China and it allows them to regain influence in the region.
    Of course, all of this could develop into a new World War, but that is the risk of playing the new great game of an empire unwilling to admit its decline.

    US needs Georgia to conquer South Ossetia since it is too close to where the pipeline will pass. Georgia tried a few years ago, they will try again and U.S. help will allow this to be successful.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Why not continue to feed the Georgian dream of NATO membership? I mean they sent troops to Iraq and they've sent troops to Afghanistan. Not necessarily the most disciplined troops, or even remotely in shape from what I've seen, but plenty of US hand-me-downs for them to play with.

    Georgia wants to be considered a western country economically and militarily more than anything, and it just doesn't work for the US when we're barely able to cover our interest payments and sooner rather than later we will have to address our bloated military and pointless overseas stationing of troops when the axe man comes a looking for budget cuts.

    I'm beginning to identify more and more with Ron Paul on his foreign policy. We're in places we don't belong, and it only hurts us. We really do not need to be putting ourselves into another bad situation, it's all to Georgia's gain and has nothing to do with the well-being of the US.
    Last edited by I WUB PUGS; October 13, 2011 at 08:31 PM. Reason: this flu is killing my grammar

  18. #18

    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by I WUB PUGS View Post
    Why not continue to feed the Georgian dream of NATO membership? I mean they sent troops to Iraq and they've sent troops to Afghanistan. Not necessarily the most disciplined troops, or even remotely in shape from what I've seen, but plenty of US hand-me-downs for them to play with.

    Georgia wants to be considered a western country economically and militarily more than anything, and it just doesn't work for the US when we're barely able to cover our interest payments and sooner rather than later we will have to address our bloated military and pointless overseas stationing of troops when the axe man comes a looking for budget cuts.

    I'm beginning to identify more and more with Ron Paul on his foreign policy. We're in places we don't belong, and it only hurts us. We really do not need to be putting ourselves into another bad situation, it's all to Georgia's gain and has nothing to do with the well-being of the US.
    Thinking that Georgia is going to stay so staunchly pro-West is a mistake. It's Saakashvili and his cronies that have sold the country to the West. Georgians are increasingly angry with Saakashvili and his policies. They view him as an undemocratic leader that is increasingly becoming more authoritarian. Come election day those cronies will be ousted and replaced by more moderated minded folks. US thus risks alienating it from the rest of Georgians by being so close with Saakashvili. I think it's pretty obvious which option is best for the long run - not to mention the dangers that lie in being so militarily close with Saakashvili.


    Quote Originally Posted by Azoth View Post
    Military confrontation? Nothing will happen. Russia isn't dumb enough to want to start a war. Even though Russia likes to fly high altitude bombers and violate the air spaces of various countries, nothing happens. Russia has its own intentions, and the US has theres.

    Hotspur made a very good point about a base there though, and i would support it.
    Last time it was Georgia who started the hostilities, with God knows what influences from behind. Fact remains fact that US soldiers being stationed in Georgia near the breakaway states adds incredibly to the tensions between Russia and the US. Why create those tensions? What is the point?? Not to mention the fact that US has soldiers already in many other countries, full forces in Iraq, Afghanistan - can US continue to afford this and not face domestic upheaval over it? When one stretches to much - cracks begin to develop.
    Last edited by Armenum; October 13, 2011 at 08:58 PM.
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    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Mov View Post
    Last time it was Georgia who started the hostilities, with God knows what influences from behind. Fact remains fact that US soldiers being stationed in Georgia near the breakaway states adds incredibly to the tensions between Russia and the US. Why create those tensions? What is the point?? Not to mention the fact that US has soldiers already in many other countries, full forces in Iraq, Afghanistan - can US continue to afford this and not face domestic upheaval over it? When one stretches to much - cracks begin to develop.
    Why create tensions? Why fly high altitude bombers and violate various countries's air spaces? I don't know, but Russia likes to do it. The US obviously wants more influence in the region. Like i said Russia and the US are already at odds over each other. This will just be added to a long list of things Russia and the US do to piss each other off.

    And if the US is going to build a base in Georgia, i would hope they would close other certain bases. Infact i wish the US would close some bases around the world. I don't think the US needs so many bases like they have now.

  20. #20

    Default Re: US Troops to be Stationed in Georgia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azoth View Post
    Why create tensions? Why fly high altitude bombers and violate various countries's air spaces? I don't know, but Russia likes to do it. The US obviously wants more influence in the region. Like i said Russia and the US are already at odds over each other. This will just be added to a long list of things Russia and the US do to piss each other off.

    And if the US is going to build a base in Georgia, i would hope they would close other certain bases. Infact i wish the US would close some bases around the world. I don't think the US needs so many bases like they have now.
    US hasn't violated air spaces with its military planes? Georgia has done it to, so have many other countries. That's not the question here. The South Caucasus is historically Russia's backyard. It's like Iran having a military base in Mexico. How would US feel about that? Plus, you have to realise that US is supporting a leader whose support in the country is waning and his circle of cronies. The more they become closer with Saakashvili the more they endager future relations with Georgia which without a doubt wants Saakashvili out.

    Again I ask. Yes US has some issues at odds with Russia, but why make the tension ten-fold? Why make Russia cease all cooperation with the West (which is actually very helpful) and bring war-like atmosphere to the relations? All for Saakashvili and his cronies? Are they that valuable and important?
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