Europe unified and good for the UK

[Denny Crane!]

For once I am going to step down off my pedestal and actually admit I may have been wrong.

Many things concern me about the EU. Despite all claims corruption is no longer an issue and there are efficient bodies in place I am not satisfied. Large budgets are hard to validate, and corruption is endemic.

I also have great concerns over the malleability of power, would it truly be democracy when it is on such a large scale. Are policies that are right for the rest of Europe applicable to the UK? France' population obviously does not think so judging by there reaction to the labour flexibility laws.

Things I have researched and subsequently allowed to influence my opinions are:

The euro is actually doing a whole lot better than the media would have us believe. Political opposition or posturing is politically not financially motivated.

Tax harmonisation. How is it that some of Europe enjoys relaxed taxes on things like alcohol and tobacco and oil yet maintains the same lifestyle standard (relatively) as the UK?

Price fixing (my biggest gripe). How many people remember the court case that stopped Tesco importing jeans from America and selling them at a quarter of the price. What about Playstation 2's selling for £300 here and up to a £150 cheaper in other countries. The court case that closed the web site selling CD's through import at up to £5 cheaper. I'm sure we all know or have went abroad and brought back cheaper alcohol.

What arguements can people give for and against. I am now leaning towards the for.

Peter

[Dirty Harry]

Great Britains real friends will always be its younger cousins across the seas who speak english, not the arrogant and incompetant continentals who've had to have democracy and free markets forced upon them by anglo-saxon force of arms, and have only adopted it reluctantly. Old Europe is sinking, and the UK needs to stay away from it so it doesn't get dragged down by the undertoe.

All throughout the last 1000 years Britain has risen above the continent, and humanity has benifited, the UK should not be tempted to join the lowest common denominator now.

[Denny Crane!]

Great Britains real friends will always be its younger cousins across the seas who speak english, not the arrogant and incompetant continentals who've had to have democracy and free markets forced upon them by anglo-saxon force of arms, and have only adopted it reluctantly. Old Europe is sinking, and the UK needs to stay away from it so it doesn't get dragged down by the undertoe.

All throughout the last 1000 years Britain has risen above the continent, and humanity has benifited, the UK should not be tempted to join the lowest common denominator now.

Ah well done exactly the idiosyncratic patriotic view I was looking for.

Our friends across the sea who in 2002, the USA imposed trade tariffs of up to 30% on imports of steel products from the EU, placing huge additional costs on British steel manufacturers, an industry that employs 70,000 British workers.

The example quoted about a legal case involving tesco importing jeans to sell at a quarter of the price involved an American company.

Whereas if we follow what the EU wants we will have free trade across Europe, the liberalisation of service industries and serious pull and push with the WTO and USA.

PEter

[Dirty Harry]

When the US puts a trade tariff on something it's due to idiots in congress protecting local industry at the expense of the whole country's consumers. The put tariffs on Canadian lumber also, and guess what the real consequence is? 2000$ added to the cost of a new home in the USA (I bet the US auto industry isn't too thrilled with those steel tariffs too). Protectionism only benifits the industries who get selfish politicians to implement them, the typical consumer just loses. That is why Bush is overall a free trader, and tries to help settle the Canadian lumber thing, but he faces stiff opposition from congressmen and senators from US lumber producing states.

Besides if the UK/USA/Canada/Australia/NZ put their heads together they could easily work out a free trade agreement like NAFTA between them. Its not like the EU is the only option, I really wish this kind of better option could be explored.

[Sétanta]

I have always wanted the UK to stay closer to her Elder Sons (Canada and America) rather than her bitter enemies.

I think that being closer to the US is better for the economy of Britain.

[StarDreamer]

When the US puts a trade tariff on something it's due to idiots in congress protecting local industry at the expense of the whole country's consumers. The put tariffs on Canadian lumber also, and guess what the real consequence is? 2000$ added to the cost of a new home in the USA (I bet the US auto industry isn't too thrilled with those steel tariffs too). Protectionism only benifits the industries who get selfish politicians to implement them, the typical consumer just loses. That is why Bush is overall a free trader, and tries to help settle the Canadian lumber thing, but he faces stiff opposition from congressmen and senators from US lumber producing states.

Besides if the UK/USA/Canada/Australia/NZ put their heads together they could easily work out a free trade agreement like NAFTA between them. Its not like the EU is the only option, I really wish this kind of better option could be explored.

Why is it any better than EU is?

[Dirty Harry]

^^What sustained growth?? Do you mean the 0-1.5% GDP growth of France/Italy/Germany? (along with massive unemployment) These are sick economies.

Why is it any better than EU is?

Like I said, sinking ship.

[Denny Crane!]

Like I said, sinking ship.

Wheres your proof of that? Like I said the euro is performing very well in international markets. France is in a terrible situation but only really due to its own population and its resistance to Labour laws similar to Britains. Britains troubles are down to Browns excessive spending which both the EU and the WTO have warned him about. That and pension raids in '97 and a £205 billion increase in tax raises. Nothing to do with the EU and nothing which isn't similar to problems America faces.

Peter

[StarDreamer]

^^What sustained growth?? Do you mean the 0-1.5% GDP growth of France/Italy/Germany? (along with massive unemployment) These are sick economies.



Like I said, sinking ship.

Hmpfh Italy hasn't had a strong economy since the renessance... France is too dependant on its agriculture. And Germany has had to deal with the intergration of the eastern part and it is still struggling with it.
And if the EU would be sinking why would the so called "new europe" join the EU?
"Old Europe" the term coined by the american goverment to label those who didn't support the Iraqi war, is an idiotic word to sue anyways.

[Mad Guitar Murphy]

^^What sustained growth?? Do you mean the 0-1.5% GDP growth of France/Italy/Germany? (along with massive unemployment) These are sick economies.



Like I said, sinking ship.

the economies of continental europe are doing a lot better right now

http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/porta..._schema=PORTAL


This link gives some nice info on employment

http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/porta..._schema=PORTAL

[Denny Crane!]

When the US puts a trade tariff on something it's due to idiots in congress protecting local industry at the expense of the whole country's consumers. The put tariffs on Canadian lumber also, and guess what the real consequence is? 2000$ added to the cost of a new home in the USA (I bet the US auto industry isn't too thrilled with those steel tariffs too). Protectionism only benifits the industries who get selfish politicians to implement them, the typical consumer just loses. That is why Bush is overall a free trader, and tries to help settle the Canadian lumber thing, but he faces stiff opposition from congressmen and senators from US lumber producing states.

This just adds ammunition to my arguement that the USA is no friend at all. Until you sort out your politics we should reap what we can from our relationship but concentrate on forging stronger ties with Europe.

Besides if the UK/USA/Canada/Australia/NZ put their heads together they could easily work out a free trade agreement like NAFTA between them. Its not like the EU is the only option, I really wish this kind of better option could be explored.

Nice in theory but not going to happen, therefore it is best to stick with what we know can work and is already set in motion. Unfortunatly as you explained the USA's internal politics do not lend themselves to such an agreement as Britains politics and attitudes are not allowing for integration into the EU.

Peter

[Dirty Harry]

This just adds ammunition to my arguement that the USA is no friend at all. Until you sort out your politics we should reap what we can from our relationship but concentrate on forging stronger ties with Europe.

Nice in theory but not going to happen, therefore it is best to stick with what we know can work and is already set in motion. Unfortunatly as you explained the USA's internal politics do not lend themselves to such an agreement as Britains politics and attitudes are not allowing for integration into the EU.

Peter

Well in NAFTA, the softwood-dispute is the exception not the norm. Infact I would have to say the only industries that constantly create problems like this have been lumber and steel, 2 industries which are on the decline in the USA and are just desperatly trying to hold on. These kinds of disputes are a rarity, hardly the norm and it is wrong of you to exagerrate my examples like that.

[Denny Crane!]

Well in NAFTA, the softwood-dispute is the exception not the norm. Infact I would have to say the only industries that constantly create problems like this have been lumber and steel, 2 industries which are on the decline in the USA and are just desperatly trying to hold on. These kinds of disputes are a rarity, hardly the norm and it is wrong of you to exagerrate my examples like that.

I think it is representative of the USA's attitude to the UK and anyone but itself. Its policies are ultimatly self serving whereas the EU's decisions are of a direct benefit to the UK.

Peter

[vikingsiddhu]

Honestly tarriffs and the like shouldn't exist. They are more merchantalist that capitalist.

[Custor]

After a shakey start the Euro is doing pretty well. Sustained economic growth without (so far) the boom/bust curse of the 80's. After having dealt with the euro on many occasions abroad it's far simpler for even a tourist enver mind business. Lower interest rate as the CBI has been calling out for too.

[Mad Guitar Murphy]

I am not from the UK but IMO the greatest benefit for EU member states would be the completion of the single market. And the European Commission is the only institution independant enough from national interests to guarantee competition in the 'internal EU market'. The freedoms (movement of goods (prevention of duties, taxes, and charges on import/export, workers, capital and services) have already proved their value to the member states economies.

[imp2054]

Please do not make the mistake of taking Britains 'special relationship' with the US to seriously. It is merely WWII Churchillian rhetoric misappropriated by eurosceptics.

The United States will in the future be more focused upon Latin America and the Pacific, its disengagement from Europe is inevitable in my opinion and with it Britains 'special relationship' will mean nothing. The UK is just another part of the geopolitical jigsaw. And considering Britain is economically, geographically and politically part of Europe it is simply prudent politics to embrace it.

Oh and for those of you fond of such emotive concepts as 'special relationship', bear in mind the UK and US spent 150 years out of 200 as mutually suspicious competitiors and occassional enemies.

The UK must embrace Europe for its own sake, and Europe with full British support will be evermore prosperous and secure.

"a sinking ship"?

The largest single economy on Earth comprising almost half a billion people in the most developed region in the world. I dont think its going to be sinking anytime soon.

[Dirty Harry]

Haha you guys are living in a real fantasyland.

And if the EU would be sinking why would the so called "new europe" join the EU?
"Old Europe" the term coined by the american goverment to label those who didn't support the Iraqi war, is an idiotic word to sue anyways.

I know the origins of the term, but it has a nice ring to it, and a true one, otherwise people wouldn't be using it still.

New Europe joined the EU to benifit from the low tarifs and no limits on moving capital, which benifit it a lot since investors of old europe are flocking to the east as there's still oppurtunity there which isn't strangled by taxes, welfare and over-regulation. If Brussels started to impose their bureaucracy too much you can be sure they'd bail once pros of cash handouts and easy capital movement no longer outweighed the cons of red tape and french tax "harmonisation".

the economies of continental europe are doing a lot better right now

http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/port...&_schema=PORTAL

o rly? Here is a pretty damning report which shows how much poorer the EU is now getting:
http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/

Yes the EU's overall GDP is higher, but in 2005 its 12.4 trillion for USA vs 13.4 for EU, which isn't too great since the population is 300 million vs 460 million and the GDP growth rate is 3.5% vs 2%!

I think it is representative of the USA's attitude to the UK and anyone but itself. Its policies are ultimatly self serving whereas the EU's decisions are of a direct benefit to the UK.

Ok mr USA is destroying the world. Im sure you let everyone know this when you show up to WTO meetings and start burning american flags.

Please do not make the mistake of taking Britains 'special relationship' with the US to seriously. It is merely WWII Churchillian rhetoric misappropriated by eurosceptics.

The United States will in the future be more focused upon Latin America and the Pacific

Britain will always have a special relationship with the USA/Canada/ANZACs, same language, same culture. Maybe in 100 years this will change, but I'm sure today you average brit can relate a lot more with a north american than a frenchman or greek, and vice versa.

[Denny Crane!]

Ok mr USA is destroying the world. Im sure you let everyone know this when you show up to WTO meetings and start burning american flags.

Wow great ad hominem attack you have just ensured that I take every post I ever read of yours with a pinch of salt and a huge degree of skepticism. I say this because you have just made an emotional evaluative response of me based on one post. If you bothered to get to know me before judging my character you would know I quite like the USA would love visit the place and have a healthy respect for it.

I am however under no illusions as to its business dealings and that it holds no special relationship with the UK close to its heart and if it serves will impede the UK if it means it benefits a US company.

Now if you can provide examples or evidence to the contrary feel free to do so, I can provide plenty towards the EU's relationship to the UK, ones that have already been listed like the liberalisation of the service industries.

Or alternatively judge me some more and paint me out to be an anarchist or better yet a communist.

Britain will always have a special relationship with the USA/Canada/ANZACs, same language, same culture. Maybe in 100 years this will change, but I'm sure today you average brit can relate a lot more with a north american than a frenchman or greek, and vice versa.

Again evidence, I believe you are mistaking cultural empathy with business and diplomacy.

Peter

[Erik]

IMO the UK should fully join the EU.
Why? because then you wil be as screwed as we are.

This way we wil be in it together, and we can both laugh and remember the time when our democratically elected governemt was allowed to make decisions without being called back by the old-boys club of the EU-comission half the time, and the time our farmers produced to fill market demands instead of dumping their unwanted sugar while living off EU benefits payed for trough our taxes.