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Thread: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

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  1. #1

    Default Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    From my limited experience with the RTW, I found the Equities the best unit to mass produce. Now I am not saying only build Equities and nothing else. But as I play I found myself using Equities more and more, and right now they are the core, backbone of my army. I look at this from two stand points, economics and performance.

    1)Economics

    -Easy to produce: The Equities can be produced from the smallest towns, from the very basic stables. So after conquering a new town, you (pretty much always) can start producing Equities right on the spot. Comparing this with Archers, which requires a town of at least 6,000 and the 2nd level practice range, the Equities is much easier to produce.

    -Cheap to maintain: The Equities only costs $110 to maintain each turn. That is $60 cheaper than most units. Now it only has 108 units, lower than the usual 160 units, per group. However a group of Equities is actually just as effective as 160 units from other groups, if not more so (more on this later). With 10 units, that is $600 savings a turn. With 20 units, that is $1200 savings per turn. It adds up.

    -Easier on town growth: Because they only uses up 108 men per turn, they are less harmful to a town's population growth when compared to other units.

    -Very fast movement speed on world map: They move very fast on the world map. This allows them to attack, retreat and reinforce positions with ease.

    2)Performance

    -Charge: This is free enemy kill right from the start of the battle. Its not uncommon for Equities to kill off 10-20 guys within the first few seconds. That is why I said earlier that the difference between the manpower of 108 Equities and 160 other soldiers is actually much smaller than what it seems to be.

    -Speed: Equities move super fast, and there are a lot of advantages from that. Firstly they are great for sneaking behind enemy lines to kill their missile units. Secondly they are great for chasing they enemy routing units. Lastly if they themselves happens to route, they have a greater chance of escaping without losing too many men. They might be able to fight again later on.

    -Beats all foot soldiers: By default, Equities beats foot soldiers, including the likes of Hastati and Archers. And foot soldiers are the most popular choice of the AI. Even spearmen can be beaten with some micro management. Use some Equities (or other units) to lure the spearmen, while another group go Equities goes to their back and charge them from behind.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-56-23-64.jpg

    -Stamina bonus: Equities can run around the enemy footmen in circles, tiring them out, before engaging. In other words, Equities can choose when they want to engage the enemy, while footmen must wait for the Equities to engage. During my fight against Egyptian spearmen my Equities beat them largely due to them being exhausted just from running.

    -Great defense against enemy cavalry charges: Spearmen are supposed to be the best defense against enemy cavalry charge, but they are just way too slow. Often times the AI is smart enough to avoid my spearmen and charge my Archers. With Equities I can support my archers pretty fast. And these counter charges will usually kill off a lot of their cavalry. And since I always have more Equities than their cavalries I usually overpower them.
    Last edited by CHIPS; October 11, 2011 at 03:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Genius of the Restoration's Avatar You beaut and magical
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    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Solid advice CHIPS. Equites, like all early cav, are excellent in dealing with enemies in the early turns. Have you played with Light Lancers? They're more fragile but hilarious to use.
    Quote Originally Posted by CHIPS View Post
    The Equities can be produced from the smallest towns, from the very basic stables.
    Sorry to break it to you, but you can't build a stable in the smallest towns . Check the building browser, they should be on the same tier as practice ranges.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration View Post
    Solid advice CHIPS. Equites, like all early cav, are excellent in dealing with enemies in the early turns. Have you played with Light Lancers? They're more fragile but hilarious to use.

    Sorry to break it to you, but you can't build a stable in the smallest towns . Check the building browser, they should be on the same tier as practice ranges.
    I stand corrected. Level 1 towns cannot produce anything but Town Watches. What I meant is that a level 2 town can produce Velites and Equites, but not archers. Archers requires a level 3 town with a level 3 missile range.

    In early game most towns that I conquered were at level 2. As a result I can produce Equities, but not archers.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration View Post
    Solid advice CHIPS. Equites, like all early cav, are excellent in dealing with enemies in the early turns. Have you played with Light Lancers? They're more fragile but hilarious to use.Sorry to break it to you, but you can't build a stable in the smallest towns . Check the building browser, they should be on the same tier as practice ranges.

    I'd just like to mention that Light Lancers can actually do a lot of work when used properly. As in rout heavy cavalry which would normally outclass them when the charge bonus is used correctly in coordination with other factors. They're fragile, but not Greek Cavalry fragile. That's a real joke.

    At least, the Light Lancers of Macedon are effective, I can't speak for any other faction that uses them, if any.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    I find Round Shield Cavalry better than Equites. That's just me.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius Caesar View Post
    I find Round Shield Cavalry better than Equites. That's just me.
    Yeah that is why I said Equites and equivalents. Round Shield Cavalry are the equivalents of Equities for Carthage.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    BARBARIAN cavalry ?

  8. #8
    Genius of the Restoration's Avatar You beaut and magical
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    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Macedon are the only faction that has them. They are more fragile than Greek Cav because, even though they have the same defence skill, Lancers have zero armour and no shield which makes them fall to missiles instantly. Greek Cav have three armour IIRC. Makes them less fragile. Though of course this doesn't make them better as they won't cause as many casualties and will end up fighting more opponents anyway. As an aside, does everyone else think it is completely pointless to have Greek Cav come after Light Lancers in the build tree? Why would you ever bother!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    I just have this nightmarish experience against Greek (Spartian!) General's cavalry. I had always been playing on very hard in battles. This battle I had already killed all of his other troops. So all he had left was 89 of his heavy cavalry. I still have well over 2,000 men. I started off with waves of arrows against them. But they seems totally immune to arrow attacks. To kill them I must go melee.

    Normally I would just charge all my troops to overwhelm him. But I heard that Spartian troops are highly dangerous. what I did was to first engage them with my Hastati, and then charge them from behind with my own cavalry.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...1-46-44-31.jpg

    So I had them surrounded. I thought I won for sure. Dead wrong! Normally when getting hit from behind its free kills. However these Spartians are very different. They only lost like 9 guys from my cavalry charge and the next few seconds of fighting. And the next thing they did, they all turned around to fight my cavalry instead. In other words, they totally ignored the Hastati (now behind them) because they are totally useless against them.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...1-47-19-05.jpg

    The Spartians slowly kills my cavalries. The Hastati were attacking their backs, but somehow they were still dropping like flies. Read this again! The Hastati are hitting the backs of the Spartians, but the Hastatis are still lossing VERY badly. Suddenly my no-name general started routing when he still had like 80 guys. And a few seconds later, before he could escape, he got killed. And before I know it its total rout for me.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...1-49-10-01.jpg

    The Spartians only lost like 20 guys. Granted I slaughtered a ton of his other troops before this, but these Spartian Cavalries are out of control!

    So this highlights how worthless the Hastati unit type are. They were naturally weak against cavalry, and extremely weak against general's cavalry. And when you pair that up with very hard mode (bonus armor and damage for the AI) and crazy Spartians they becomes totally useless. In this battle I had way too many Hastati and not enough cavalry. That sealed my fate.

    If I ever fight these guys again, I am bringing some onagers.
    Last edited by CHIPS; October 12, 2011 at 05:09 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    That's the problem on playing Very Hard. Enemies get incredibly buffed, and you seem to suck. In M/M everything is equal, providing a balanced gameplay. Hastati are worthwhile troops. You just had VH against them.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    I like using VH/M or H/M to give some buffs to the AI in campaign while still doing well in the battles.
    If you've transcended your facticity, congratulations. You're 3 transcendences from HoS.
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  12. #12
    Genius of the Restoration's Avatar You beaut and magical
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    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    CHIPS, do you have a save file of that battle? You should upload some of your battles to TWC, I'd love to give them a go at some point.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Quote Originally Posted by Genius of the Restoration View Post
    CHIPS, do you have a save file of that battle? You should upload some of your battles to TWC, I'd love to give them a go at some point.
    No sorry I don't keep saves. But I finally won that battle. What I did was replaced 2 groups of Hastati with 2 Roman Cavalry.

    This time the AI changed and it decided to fight me outside the city walls instead. My plan was similar to last time. I "sneaked" one group of cavalry behind their units, and I exposed my archers to lure him to charge at me. He couldn't resist the free kills and did charged, well ahead of his slow moving spearmen. My calvary nearby quickly surrounded him, and that "sneaky" group charged his back.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...8-31-19-27.jpg

    There was a group of enemy spearmen nearby. I sent my group of gladiators (free gift from the Senate) against them to keep them away from my cavalry. They eventually lost, but the spearmen got delayed.

    I was still taking massive causalities. But unlike the last time, my cavalry could at least kill a few Spartian units, specially from behind. Slowly they got overwhelmed by my enormous army.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...8-33-35-90.jpg

    And their general and king finally fell.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...8-33-39-74.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...8-33-56-31.jpg

    Their spearmen just then got to my cavalry. But its too late. With their Spartians dead they got no chance. I retreated my cavalry away and my archer slowly slaughtered them from a distance.
    Last edited by CHIPS; October 12, 2011 at 11:25 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    I just fought a very bloody battle against the Egyptians, in their new capital Jerusalem. In good old Egyptian style they got 4 groups of chariots against me.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-02-45-89.jpg
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-02-41-10.jpg
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-02-11-57.jpg

    This battle really highlights the problem with Hastati. Now by the end of the battle all my cavalries are dead or routed, including my commander. The Hastati (and Principles) on the other hand survived. Does that mean Hastati is better? Nope! That is because I hardly found any use for the Hastati throughout the whole battle! The only guys they can fight against (on theory) are enemy missile units and spearmen, but they don't in reality.

    Against missile units they are not fast enough to catch them. It was much better for me to use my cavalry and my own missile units to kill them.

    Against spearmen, they were supposed to beat them. However in truth they often losses against spearmen, since they don't really have that much better stats than they are. And it was much better for me to use missile units against the spearmen anyways, so I just hold the Hastati back.

    So as you can see, there was little reason for me to use my Hastati to engage any enemies.

    I did use my Hastatis to lure the enemy chariots into them, so my cavalries can charge them from behind. The Hastati got totally slaughtered, and dealing very little damage back (see kill/death ratio). So the only use of these Hastati in the whole battle were to be used as baits for traps.

    As a final statement of shame, at the end I have 6 groups of Hastati left. I saw a group of left over spearmen with only 11 guys left. I sent my Hastati against them, and go back to watching my AI generals finishing off the last of the chariots. Suddenly 3 groups of my Hastati started routing. I was like WTF was there another group of chariots hiding around? I go back and to my dismay those 11 spearmen had caused those 3 Hastati groups to rout. Luckily 3 units stayed and finished those 11 guys off. But damn how embarrassing. I sent 400 men against 11 guys, and like 200 of them decided to rout.

    So conclusion, stay with your Equities and Archers. I honestly find zero reason to build Hastati over Equities.

    Also: AI allies are very dumb with ranged units. They keep forcing the Cretan archers and slingers into melee combat against enemy spearmen. Their group had 1,500 men and got reduced to 500 by the end. Only their 3 generals got a decent kill/death ratio.
    Last edited by CHIPS; October 13, 2011 at 04:48 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Weird ive used hastati on very hard with huge success its just a matter of tactics.
    I either fought on high ground to remove enemy charge bonus and increase my mens range with the pila or i moved in close pored all my pila into them then charged before they could reform there ranks.
    Once my men got in close and the enemy was disorganised it was a disaster for them the hastati ripped them to shreds.
    Ive done this to spartans and armored hoplites on vh and won i lost a lot more men but it still worked out for me in the end.
    There good use to fix the enemy in places so better men can close which is standard roman military doctorine anyway the auxilary pin the enemy down so the legions or cavalry can close just think of hastati as auxilary and principles/triari as legions.
    I am the shadow, and the smoke in your eyes I am the ghost, that hides in the night.

    We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
    we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
    we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
    we shall fight on the beaches,
    we shall fight on the landing grounds,
    we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
    we shall fight in the hills;
    we shall never surrender.

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    Its first gift is concealment: our true faces lie in the dark beneath our skins, our true hearts remain shadowed deeper still. But the greatest concealment lies not in protecting our secret truths, but in hiding from the truths of others.
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    Its second gift is comforting illusion: the ease of gentle dreams in night’s embrace, the beauty that imagination brings to what would repel in the day’s harsh light. But the greatest of its comforts is the illusion that dark is temporary: that every night brings a new day. Because it’s the day that is temporary.
    Day is the illusion.
    Its third gift is the light itself: as days are defined by the nights that divide them, as stars are defined by the infinite black through which they wheel, the dark embraces the light, and brings it forth from the center of its own self.
    With each victory of the light, it is the dark that wins.


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    The dark’s patience is infinite.
    Eventually, even stars burn out.


    The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins.
    It always wins because it is everywhere.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Quote Originally Posted by mesor View Post
    Weird ive used hastati on very hard with huge success its just a matter of tactics.
    I either fought on high ground to remove enemy charge bonus and increase my mens range with the pila or i moved in close pored all my pila into them then charged before they could reform there ranks.
    Once my men got in close and the enemy was disorganised it was a disaster for them the hastati ripped them to shreds.
    Ive done this to spartans and armored hoplites on vh and won i lost a lot more men but it still worked out for me in the end.
    There good use to fix the enemy in places so better men can close which is standard roman military doctorine anyway the auxilary pin the enemy down so the legions or cavalry can close just think of hastati as auxilary and principles/triari as legions.
    Hmm...well like I said I got Hastati behind the Spartian Cavalry. I don't see how I can get better positioning than that. But the Hastati was still somehow lossing badly. Spartians could literally kill Hastati by their butt.

    Hastati can be used to hold enemies, while another army attack from the side. That is kind of what I was doing with them. But the problem is, why should I build Hastati just to hold the enemies in place, when I could have simply built Equities and try for a win? Not to mention Hastati are almost instant rout against cavalry charges. At least with Equities I can charge back and its fair game.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Cavalry in general is overpowered due to the speed and charge/flanking bonuses.

    Hastati/principes etc. need to use their pilla. The way to do it is put them on Guard mode and let them expend all ammo while the enemy is approaching (for example those spearmen). They will seriously damage any unit that engages them, and with some help from timely cavalry charge will overwhelmingly win the battle against enemy infantry.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    Cavalry is overpowered, as told above. If you face a superiorly larger army, just let them chase you around till they are exhausted. Then charge home.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    You're playing on VH. Almost everything early game routes to a charge from an AI.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Why Equites (and equivalents) are awesome in campaign..

    I just had a very close battle with the Pontus. Originally I allied with them to ensure that they won't help Egypt. Now I am pretty close to conquaring Egypt, and Pontus decided to attack Lycia. It seems they only wanted to use me to get rid of their rival Egypt. And once I am weakened from the fighting they would attack me.

    Normally I won't have any troops defending that area. The city itself only has 5 cavalry units. Lucky for me I just finished a campaign against the Greeks in Rhodes, and all the troops had been retrained. I shipped them over to reinforce the city.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-26-31-57.jpg

    Manpower wise I have the clear advantage. However I checked their units and they have many Scythed Chariots in their procession. I have never fought against them before, but they surely sound dangerous. I mean when it costs $920 to train up 36 guys, you know those 36 guys will be pretty ****ed up.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-15-34-31.jpg

    So here I am, eager to face an enemy I have never seen before. Like usual, I put my archers up front with cavalries right behind them.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-24-32-75.jpg

    Right off the bat, their chariots charge at full speed toward my units. I have never seen this before, not even from the Egyptian chariots. My archers were too close to the front, so they only got one volley of arrows out before the chariots are within killing distance. I quickly ordered my cavalry and hastati to interrupt them. However it was a disaster. My Roman Cavalry, when facing these Scythed Chariots one on one, gets routed very fast. And when they hit my Hastati they instant rout. The Scythed Chariots kept charging forward and got to my archers in no time, and they also instant rout.

    The result was one of the worst defeats in my career.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-36-43-18.jpg

    I loaded back the previous save to try again. This time I decided to hide my units in the back so my archers can fire off a few more volley of arrows. I also concentrated my cavalry to fight one chariots at a time. The location was pretty horrible however, all down hill on my side.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-42-21-19.jpg

    By concentration on one chariot, my 400 men cavalry managed to rout one group of chariots.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-44-07-89.jpg

    But no more. They were facing constant attacks from enemy javalins and chariot archers. They managed to got near a group of chariot archers, but routed a few seconds later.

    So all seems lost again. My cavalry is destroyed. My Hastati got no chance. But just then a major change occurred. A combination of my cavalry delaying them, and the great travelling distance, allowed my archers to fire a few volleys of fire arrows into one group of Scythed Chariots. That group started running amok, right into another group of Scythed Chariots. This not only made them kill each other, there was also another side effect. My fire arrows now also lands on this new group, so that group also started running amok. Suddenly there are 3 groups of Scythed Chariots running amok, right when their javaliners and Chariot Archers were running downhill for the kill.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-47-33-22.jpg

    Words cannot describe what happened. It seems every time these Scythed Chariots runs around in their crazy circle they take down 20 of their own guys. Horses and men all died to those sharp blade. And within a minute the battle tide has turned completely. Many of their units started routing, and the rest retreated.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-47-50-13.jpg

    The left over dead on that hill, mostly by their own chariots, was a sight to behold.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-49-47-10.jpg

    I gave chase. The chariots running amok weren't capable of retreating. They were still running around in circles. I kept my distance and fire more fire arrows at them. I took out 2 Scythed Chariot units there were running amok. I am not sure what happened to the 3rd group but I guess it recovered. I also took out one Chariot Archer unit that only had 20 guys left. I guess they left it behind to delay me so other units can escape. Their commander wasn't among them and escaped.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-55-36-94.jpg

    As for the groups that was routing or escaping, their escape path happens to be right where my AI reinforcement were. I didn't actually saw what happened. But my guess would be that my ally killed a lot of the escaping units, before their last, under control, Scythe Chariot unit cleared the path to allow an escape.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-58-09-96.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...3-58-48-42.jpg

    Totally my units and allies killed 594 guys. But they lost 749 men. So 155 of those guys were killed by their own chariots. I got very lucky. It was going to be another total defeat for me. Those Scythed Chariots were superior to my cavalry in every way. However they will run amok when they see enough fire arrows, and with that they destroyed themselves.

    I will surely be training up more archers before I face them again.
    Last edited by CHIPS; October 14, 2011 at 03:51 PM.

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