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  1. #1
    Sadreddine's Avatar Lost in a Paradise Lost
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    Default The debt crisis and an old document...

    For those of you who haven’read it, let me introduce you to the infamous, reviled, and above all controversial, late-XIX to early XX century document: ‘Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion’. This document has been subject to rabid controversy since it was published in Russia more than a century ago, and it was ‘oficially’ regarded by the ‘powers-that-be’ as a fake, anti-semitic piece of propaganda in 1921, around the time when some issues about the new project of Zionist-stablished Israel were raised by concerned individuals. Then Mr. X appeared out of nowhere and pointed out it was fake because it had partially plagiarized some previous documents of diverse procedence.

    Now I am not going to engage here in a discussion about the Protocols being genuine for the most part or not, despite inspiration in some of its passages and examples from previous works. What I am going to do is to note the striking similarities between the text and the cause and effects of the current so called ‘debt crisis’ (Hi Greeks of TWC!) many countries in the world are experiencing. It has some interesting remarks about how the financial system is supposed to work in order to achieve their goal. The goal of this mysterious ‘Learned Elders’, that is. A rough definition of those would be, following the protocols themselves, some Zionist jewish freemasons of huge financial, political and/or mediatic influence. Think of the Rothschild type. That is, if the Protocols are considered to have at least any truth in them.

    The following are extracts selected from protocol 20, subject being the financial programme. I’m pretty sure they will ring a bell:

    Economic crisis have been produced by us for the GOYIM by no other means than the withdrawal of money from circulation. Huge capitals have stagnated, withdrawing money from States, which were constantly obliged to apply to those same stagnant capitals for loans.

    These loans burdened the finances of the State with the payment of interest and made them the bond slaves of these capitals .... The concentration of industry in the hands of capitalists out of the hands of small masters has drained away all the juices of the peoples and with them also the States.
    The reforms projected by us in the financial institutions and principles of the GOYIM will be clothed by us in such forms as will alarm nobody. We shall point out the necessity of reforms in consequence of the disorderly darkness into which the GOYIM by their irregularities have plunged the finances.

    The first irregularity, as we shall point out, consists in their beginning with drawing up a single budget which year after year grows owing to the following cause: this budget is dragged out to half the year, then they demand a budget to put things right, and this they expend in three months, after which they ask for a supplementary budget, and all this ends with a liquidation budget.

    But, as the budget of the following year is drawn up in accordance with the sum of the total addition, the annual departure from the normal reaches as much as 50 per cent in a year, and so the annual budget is trebled in ten years.

    Thanks to such methods, allowed by the carelessness of the GOY States, their treasuries are empty. The period of loans supervenes, and that has swallowed up remainders and brought all the GOY States to bankruptcy.
    What also indeed is, in substance, a loan, especially a foreign loan? A loan is - an issue of government bills of exchange containing a percentage obligation commensurate to the sum of the loan capital. If the loan bears a charge of 5 per cent, then in twenty years the State vainly pays away in interest a sum equal to the loan borrowed, in forty years it is paying a double sum, in sixty - treble, and all the while the debt remains an unpaid debt.
    Now this last small quote above is particularly disputed. It seems it’s very similar to some description in a previous work, and yet it’s only an example. The most interesting part comes after it and it’s apparently genuine:

    From this calculation it is obvious that with any form of taxation per head the State is baling out the last coppers of the poor taxpayers in order to settle accounts with wealth foreigners, from whom it has borrowed money instead of collecting these coppers for its own needs without the additional interest.
    So long as loans were internal the GOYIM only shuffled their money from the pockets of the poor to those of the rich, but when we bought up the necessary person in order to transfer loans into the external sphere, all the wealth of States flowed into our cash- boxes and all the GOYIM began to pay us the tribute of subjects.

    If the superficiality of GOY kings on their thrones in regard to State affairs and the venality of ministers or the want of understanding of financial matters on the part of other ruling persons have made their countries debtors to our treasuries to amounts quite impossible to pay it has not been accomplished without, on our part, heavy expenditure of trouble and money.
    You know to what they have been brought by this carelessness, to what pitch of financial disorder they have arrived, notwithstanding the astonishing industry of their peoples.
    The text goes on to describe the concept and purpose of the ‘Internal Loans’.

    States announce that such a loan is to be concluded and open subscriptions for their own bills of exchange, that is, for their interest-bearing paper. That they may be within the reach of all the price is determined at from a hundred to a thousand; and a discount is made for the earliest subscribers.

    Next day by artificial means the price of them goes up, the alleged reason being that everyone is rushing to buy them. In a few days the treasury safes are as they say overflowing and there's more money than they can do with. The subscription, it is alleged, covers many times over the issue total of the loan; in this lies the whole stage effect - look you, they say, what confidence is shown in the government's bills of exchange.

    But when the comedy is played out there emerges the fact that a debit and an exceedingly burdensome debit has been created. For the payment of interest it becomes necessary to have recourse to new loans, which do not swallow up but only add to the capital debt.

    And when this credit is exhausted it becomes necessary by new taxes to cover, not the loan, BUT ONLY THE INTEREST ON IT. These taxes are a debit employed to cover a debit ....
    Later comes the time for conversions, but they diminish the payment of interest without covering the debt, and besides they cannot be made without the consent of the lenders; on announcing a conversion a proposal is made to return the money to those who are not willing to convert their paper.

    If everybody expressed his unwillingness and demanded his money back, the government would be hooked on their own files and would be found insolvent and unable to pay the proposed sums.

    By good luck the subjects of the GOY governments, knowing nothing about financial affairs, have always preferred losses on exchange and diminution of interest to the risk of new investments of their money, and have thereby many a time enabled these governments to throw off their shoulders a debit of several millions.
    Nowadays, with external loans, these tricks cannot be played by the GOYIM for they know that we shall demand all our money back.
    So what do you think?

    If these are true, that’s some worrying for you. If those are false, then I can only wonder about the high degree of malicious sense of humour and ability to foresee the future of the author who ‘predicted’ this more than a century ago, be it either with an anti-semitic purpose or just general trolling. Whatever the truth about these papers, this debt crisis seems to be upon us and threatens to grow only bigger and bigger as the finance and debt bubble expands, perhaps only to be halted by a final global meltdown?

    Please, avoid witty/sarcastic one liners if possible.
    Last edited by Sadreddine; October 10, 2011 at 08:52 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Seriously? It seems that a hundred years ago there were enough people who could foresee what happens when you have budget deficits; I'm certain that experience with state finances during periods of war when governments had to raise cash by any means played into this analysis.

    Having said that, I'm more inclined to believe human greed, laziness and incompetence are the primary causes for the mess we find ourselves today, rather than some vast Jewish conspiracy, beyond the fact that lots of Jews are in finance and benefit from such behaviour.

  3. #3
    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    So we have a discussion about the protocols of the Elders of ZIon ... in which we cannot challenge the veracity of the protocols ?!?

    But to answer your question : The similarity is due to the fact that Conspiracy theories are made by people with little imagination. Update some context and names et voila ... your 1910 conspiracy about Jewish Banksters is able to be used in 2010.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  4. #4

    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    So we have a discussion about the protocols of the Elders of ZIon ... in which we cannot challenge the veracity of the protocols ?!?

    But to answer your question : The similarity is due to the fact that Conspiracy theories are made by people with little imagination. Update some context and names et voila ... your 1910 conspiracy about Jewish Banksters is able to be used in 2010.
    What he said. Conspiracy theories rely on our amazing ability to point out 1 similarity while ignoring the 999 differences. That one thing is enough to prove the theory, despite the 999 proving it false.

  5. #5
    The Fishman's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    1. Protocols = Bollocks

    2. Antisemitism = Bollocks

    3. People in the past weren't stupid, and were perfectly capable of imagining such a thing as a debt crisis
    "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

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  6. #6
    Adar's Avatar Just doing it
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    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    In many ways the 19th century debt crises are more similar than the current debt crisis than the ones during the 20th century*. I can understand that most people aren't well learned about 19th century debt crises but people making great claims such as the protocols being a true story should be prepared to go to great lengths to prove their claims.

    Some examples directly from Wikipedia. The panic of 1890 when Barings Bank provided loans to Argentina that Argentina was unable to pay back. The bank was saved by An international consortium assembled by William Lidderdale, governor of the Bank of England, including Rothschilds and most of the other major London banks, created a fund to guarantee Barings debts, thereby averting a larger depression.

    Overend, Gurney and Company, loaning for infrastructure development which couldn't be paid back and the bank collapsed.

    Australian banking crisis of 1893, a bubble in the property market collapsed and banks went down.

    So here we have famous crises involving international and government support, bubbles of infrastructure development and collapsing property markets. And most importantly, all these occurred before someone forged the document referred to by the OP. Therefore I think we can conclude that any similarities claimed by the OP are caused by the fact that the Protocol was written to blame jews for previous debt crises.

    *The 19th century was greatly influenced by theories of "the efficient market" and free trade. Nationalism and the great depression did however convince us that these methods weren't quite as efficient as the academics thought. It's essentially not until this millenium that the financial market became as unregulated as they were in the 19th century.

  7. #7
    Sadreddine's Avatar Lost in a Paradise Lost
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    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fishman View Post
    3. People in the past weren't stupid, and were perfectly capable of imagining such a thing as a debt crisis
    Then people must surely be stupid since that time until today, as the debt bubble is only getting bigger and bigger. And the only measures against this are rising the debt cap and printing paper? Where will this farce end, as there are no resources whatsoever to justify the uncontrolled, fictitious growth sustained by a bubble of ever self-increasing debt?

    Some examples directly from Wikipedia. The panic of 1890 when Barings Bank provided loans to Argentina that Argentina was unable to pay back. The bank was saved by An international consortium assembled by William Lidderdale, governor of the Bank of England, including Rothschilds and most of the other major London banks, created a fund to guarantee Barings debts, thereby averting a larger depression.
    And 'rescues' like these only serve to delay the problem, making it bigger as time passes and with the money ending mostly in private hands, whilst the financial crisis is to be paid by 'socializing' losses, mostly to avoid banks going down who in turn restrict lending to the general public. Funny cycle.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    But as others will have noted, history goes in cycles and tends to repeat itself.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    So, can we burn the Jews again now?

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  10. #10
    Sadreddine's Avatar Lost in a Paradise Lost
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    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mythos View Post
    So, can we burn the Jews again now?
    Be my guest, although you'd be mostly burning innocent people and would have to answer for your murders.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    You mean like the Protocols increased antisemitism and innocent people died in part because of forgeries and lies? Those kind of murders?

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  12. #12
    Sadreddine's Avatar Lost in a Paradise Lost
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    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Yes, innocent people have died because of this filthy document. Your point?
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  13. #13

    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Sweet Jesus what a stupid thread.
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  14. #14
    Sadreddine's Avatar Lost in a Paradise Lost
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    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hookah Smoking Caterpiller View Post
    Sweet Jesus what a stupid thread.
    It is only stupid if you take it for something it's not. As far as I know we're just playing with some crazy ideas. By your trolling I'm going to assume you're not up to the task, which is fine by me, but next time try to be more kind or to at least add some useful or interesting insight

    Judging from your previous posting I expect none of those either in this thread or any other, though.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Rushd View Post
    It is only stupid if you take it for something it's not. As far as I know we're just playing with some crazy ideas. By your trolling I'm going to assume you're not up to the task, which is fine by me, but next time try to be more kind or to at least add some useful or interesting insight

    Judging from your previous posting I expect none of those either in this thread or any other, though.
    I seriously doubt any sensible discussion can occur in a thread which opens by quoting 'The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion' and refuses to discuss there historical veracity. They have been time and time again proven to be antisemeitic forgeries, without an ounce of truth to them. The only intelligent discussion one could have on them is debating there true origins, or perhaps an academic discussion of there influence on European Antisemitic though, and History in general.
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  16. #16
    Sadreddine's Avatar Lost in a Paradise Lost
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    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hookah Smoking Caterpiller View Post
    The only intelligent discussion one could have on them is debating there true origins, or perhaps an academic discussion of there influence on European Antisemitic though, and History in general.
    If the thread was about that I would have posted it in the VV, don't you think? Instead, I made a link between the text and the current debt crisis as an anecdotical curiosity, that's why I didn't want to discuss here its validity. You took the thread for what it is not and decided that trolling it was the best idea, however. If you don't have something useful to post, don't post at all.
    Struggling by the Pen since February 2007.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Rushd View Post
    If the thread was about that I would have posted it in the VV, don't you think? Instead, I made a link between the text and the current debt crisis as an anecdotical curiosity, that's why I didn't want to discuss here its validity. You took the thread for what it is not and decided that trolling it was the best idea, however. If you don't have something useful to post, don't post at all.
    An utterly pointless comparison.
    Hammer & Sickle - Karacharovo

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  18. #18

    Default Re: The debt crisis and an old document...

    This thread then loses what little merit it had when it is pointed out that the relevent passages in The Protocols are plagiarized from Maurice Joly's Dialogue in hell.

    How are loans made? By the issue of bonds entailing on the Government the obligation to pay interest proportionate to the capital it has been paid. Thus, if a loan is at 5%, the State, after 20 years, has paid out a sum equal to the borrowed capital. When 40 years have expired it has paid double, after 60 years triple: yet it remains debtor for the entire capital sum.
    — Montesquieu, Dialogues, p. 209

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