Was the Soviet Union Communist?
One side we have them being the patron of Communism
Other side we have them being a Fascist State ruling the people under a guise of Communism
Was there a point where the Soviet Union was Communist? What changed to guide them off that path, were they ever on that path?
Has the US's policy of the later half of the 21st Century of "Anticommunist" twisted the Western Perspective on what Communism is?
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
If the Soviet Union is not communism, then communism don't exist, next utopia please.Originally Posted by Facemelter
« Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934
Protector Domesticus
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
One debate among political scientists is whether a country that has some aspects of communism should be considered communist, or if a state has to meet certain integral requirements to qualify. While some of the workings of the Soviet Union matched some aspects of communist theory, such as the government controlling all industry and distribution and providing social services and support for the people, it also opposed communist theory in that the government operated autocratically rather than through the working class, was not egalitarian, and the state itself could be considered capitalist in its dealings with other states.
China is another example. People know it as a communist state, and the state even claims to be communist. Yet it is obvious that it is lacking a major pillar of communism, as the economy is very much capitalist, albiet with strong state controls and oversight.
I would describe such states as 'social autocracies'; they work on similar theories of socialism as social democracies (redistribution programs to aid lower class, lessen disparities, maintain government controls on economy, gov't may own controlling shares of important indistries, etc.), but have an entrenched autocratic authority. All 'communist' countries would fall into that category. Communism is kind of like Utopia, in that fully achieving all aspects of the theory is practically impossible, and no country will ever fit the definition properly.
Last edited by LSJ; October 09, 2011 at 05:43 PM.
Primicerius
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
No, the Soviet Union was Totalitarian; true Communism is too impractical. Marx was an incredibly naive man, and his systems can only exist in the hypothetical.
Petit Burgués
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Communism is pretty much a decentralized form of government, completely lacking on central-risk measuring plans at all and with little more than cooperatives making decisions on what to produce.
It's important to notice that Marx called the Paris Commune the first Proletarian Experience ever, yet when you look at it the Commune was nothing more than a bunch of rebels angry at Thiers's betrayal of France and in the long run they were not able to make a sustainable state, the way in which the Commune was politically managed differs greatly with the later Soviet Regime so you can also see how wide the term actually is.
The Soviet Union was a Centralized Bureaucratic State in the form of different Sub-systems directed by a larger system who made all decisions in regards to: production, education, health, culture and all other areas of human development... basically an administrative institution taken to it's ultimate expression of dominance.
But it's important to notice that said political monster was the brain-child of ''the self proclaimed'' inheritor of Marx's most perfected writings... so who knows??
Last edited by Claudius Gothicus; October 09, 2011 at 05:48 PM.
Under the Patronage of Maximinus Thrax
OOH KILL 'EM
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Not true, there are many true communes out there, mainly religious in nature, and stuck in times that predate Marx. Does this have anything to do with the Soviet Union? No.
Society as a whole cannot act collectively for the betterment of the society unless that society is very small and constrained such as a religious commune. I would hope that the fall of the Soviet Union, the Capitalization of China and Vietnam, the poverty of Cuba (thanks in part to the US) and the sheer idiocy of North Korea would've proven that large scale communism is a total failure.
That said, I've been told that there is no finer Apple Pie than that of the Pennsylvania Amish. And they apparently have a metric s#!t ton of cash that they sit on from all of the outstanding crafts and baked goods they make and sell, so even pure communists like money.
Comes Rei Militaris
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
That's nice to know, because outside of Pumpkin pie, I found Amercan made pies very disappointing in general.
Communism requires some form of social control; the Amish give their children a gap year in the outside, where they can decide if the lives their parents live is right for them, so essentially, it's a voluntary vocation.
Decanus
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Australia before European settlement was a good example of communism, albeit not as a single entity but as 1000's of small groups.
Answer to the topic: when I was a member the socialist party we referred to the USSR and PRC as state owned capitalism, though I personally considered this as more of a face saving statement rather than an academic theory
Praeses
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
This coming from taleworlds?I'll say again, Soviet Union was not communist NOR socialist. At least maybe partially socialist for a while. Communism had never been achieved in history of mankind anyways.
oh gosh...can you define communism again please?
Last edited by dogukan; October 10, 2011 at 04:39 AM.
"Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
Marx to A.Ruge
Part-Time Révolutionary
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Even as an ex-Marxist I could not agree more with this.
House of Caesers
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Brother of the mighty Geat Carl von Döbeln
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Petit Burgués
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Ex-marxist? wut happened?
Ancient Aliens is generalizing but truth is Marx's Theory does get waaaaaaaaay too attached to philosophy sometimes, even when Old Karl himself tried to sweep away all ''Utopian'' beliefs out of his writings.
Under the Patronage of Maximinus Thrax
Comes Rei Militaris
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
No. Not even remotely, not even an attempt at it. Not really. Or at least the most retarded go at it that could ever have been imagined. Seemed like a good idea at the time I guess. It was all planned by Lenin though look at the Menshevik division at the second congress and the disagreement over represenation.
The man was clearly an evil git.
VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Do I really have to write about the distinction between communism and Communism again? Why is this misunderstanding so ubiquitous?
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
You better be joking, I swear if this is a real difference, I will...I will...
VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
North Korea does challenge these values. The only problem is that no one in the West, except for a bunch of idiots, would champion the North Korean system and its values.
You were asking for it. Let me quote myself from an earlier thread:
"First, a distinction should be made between "Communism" and "communism," so as to not confuse terminology. Let us designate "Communism" as the political system supposedly striving for "communism." And let us designate "communism" as the ultimate goal of "Communism," that is, a classless society, a return to nature, and end of alienation, and a regaining of self-activity.
If you are saying that communism cannot be implemented right now, then you are correct, since we are nowhere near such a stage. communism cannot be forced, and we are so far away from it that even Communists find it hard to imagine what such a state of being actually entails."
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
So the political movement is striving for a nirvana ... need more beer.
« Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934
Biarchus
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Well I'm trying here to see the awesomeness of North Korea right now and how it can challenge the rest of the world. Perhaps you could enlighten me?
Biarchus
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Communism is a legend/discourse or set of economic and political actions that can be used to cause (negative) change and destruction in society as whole.
However, any states (and it's leaders) that activelly persue this legend can be called a communist state. So in that sense the leaders of the USSR actively attempted to implement communism, it's policies and it's spread around the world. Look what they accomplished, specially Stalin.
Last edited by Cat-astrophic; October 09, 2011 at 06:52 PM.
VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Yes, but does no one here miss those times when there actually existed ideological disagreements around the world? The United States has won over and over again, in WWII and the Cold War. As a result, liberal democracy and its attendant values are dominating the planet today. Who really challenges these values anymore, except for maybe North Korea? There exists a strong naivety in the Western world upholding the hegemonic discourse. Just take the example of those Wall Street demonstrators. Their protest is laughable because it is framed within the ideology of the hegemonic elite. They don't offer an alternative view of what government should be like and what role the people play in it--it's all still in the framework of liberal democracy. No one would seriously consider these days a system such as fascism or Communism. Hopefully one day we will have another renaissance of thought, in which the current Weltanschauung will be challenged and possibly extirpated. We will most likely never live to see the day. But one thing is certain: the day will come.
Biarchus
Re: Was the Soviet Union Communist?
Imo NK doesn't challenge those values it exists as a sort of failed State much to the detriment of it's own people. Eat, consume, think and do only what the State wants you to. That's not my idea of improvement. There is no system that can give everything for everyone.
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