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  1. #1

    Default Stele 8: release time...

    Yes, the Stelai are back, and in this Stele we will cover “Releasing Europa Barbarorum II: what could possibly go wrong?”

    Take a minute to think about Medieval II: Total War (or Kingdoms, if you prefer) and some mods. Stunning mods, immersive mods, mods which provide hours and hours of fun as you play them over and over again. Mods that have been crafted with great care, and attention to detail, pushing the boundaries of the engine and making it the best it can be.

    Now think a minute about installing them. Is it smooth? Easy? Does it just work, right out of the box? Unfortunately, no. It turns out installing a mod is surprisingly difficult. But that is not quite right. The better answer is that it turns out a lot can and does go wrong. As the Europa Barbarorum team, we have first hand experience of what can possibly go wrong since we have made a few releases of Europa Barbarorum I to start with and have the battle scars to prove it.

    See if you would have thought of all these issues by yourself (this exercise is particularly useful if you were thinking of making an installer for your mod yourself):
    1. The UAC feature in modern versions of Windows (Vista, 7).
    2. Some fans might use 32 bit versions of Windows, and others might use 64 bit ones.
    3. Medieval II Total War is typically installed under “Program Files”.
    4. You should not need to be administrator to install a mod. Reason is that it may interfere with the ability to play the mod as a normal user (see 1 and 3).
    5. Your mod is too large for a single installer.
    6. Speaking of size: for your fans to download your mod, you must have uploaded it first!
    7. Your mod needs to work with Steam versions of Medieval II Total War/Kingdoms
    8. Desktop shortcuts and Start Menu shortcuts need to know the location of Medieval II Total War/Kingdoms
    9. It is possible that Medieval II Total War/Kingdoms are installed, but you have no way of locating it automatically (see 8).
    10. It is possible that both Steam and retail versions of Medieval II Total War/Kingdoms are installed on the same computer. Can you install only one copy of the mod which can be played through both?
    11. You want the ability to support multiple languages for your installer (and mod).
    12. Fans who do not understand your installation guide.
    13. Fans who do not read the installation guide first (and may make mistakes).
    14. Angry ones who did not manage to figure out how to install your mod for themselves and are now at the gates, demanding technical support from you.
    15. Medieval II Total War requires numerous IDX/DAT files which you need to provide with your mod; and you can't ask your fans to jump through the necessary hoops to let the game generate those files themselves.
    16. The Launcher program included with Medieval II Total War/Kingdoms has a few quirks. These quirks affect how you need to install your mod, in order for the Launcher to be able to launch it correctly.
    17. Not all files you need to develop a mod may be needed to play it. For instance, for descriptions of units and buildings only the binary versions (strings.bin files) are required. The source code is not used by the game.
    18. How long will it take for an installer to be assembled? Who is able to build an installer, and are they always available?
    19. What if you want to release a patch for your mod?
    20. What if a fan reinstalls the mod with a different configuration of options? (For instance the first time this fan selected to install a Desktop shortcut, but the second time he only wants a Start Menu shortcut.)
    21. What if a fan wants to install multiple copies of your mod? (E.g.: for some modding of their own?)

    These are all issues which we felt we needed to address in our installers with Europa Barbarorum II. It would be well beyond this Stele to provide answers for each of these issues; instead we will highlight a few choice examples.

    Firstly, being able to install the mod in multiple different languages might not seem such a “must have” feature at first. That is, until you remember that Europa Barbarorum I has been translated into German at one point. Taking this into consideration early on also helped identify more technical issues: issue number 20 becomes more self evident once you realise that a shorcut called “Play Europa Barbarorum II” in English will have a completely different name in French!

    Secondly, you may already have spotted that issue number 18 is actually another question in disguise: “how long will it take to release the first beta?”. The answer is: thirty five minutes (excluding updating the website). This is how long it takes to convert all the files that make up our mod into a file which contains the installer and make it available for download from our internal FTP server. We know this because we have done several of these releases for testing purposes (to test the installer, among other things).

    Thirdly, with Europa Barbarorum II we attempt to automate the entire process of building an installer and doing a release. We use the server that hosts our website for this purpose: by building the installer on that server we avoid having the upload it over the Internet. This makes the whole process considerably faster, because in our test runs the final generated file topped out at about 1.1GB. Imagine you had to upload 1.1GB from your computer to a webserver!

    That is it for now. Regards,
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; October 08, 2011 at 07:26 PM.
    -Tellos Athenaios
    CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool

    “ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  2. #2
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Hey, if that's the case, you could make daily/snapshot builds from your SVN and publish them too for insane people to play with latest bugs - on their own risk of course.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Yes & no. The thing you propose introduces the issue of merge/branch, which SVN doesn't do very well unfortunately. Unless you ask to be running the trunk at all times which, frankly, won't ever be made public. It's a mess of features, before we consider the stuff which we do not yet want to preview (most often because it's not in preview-ready state, or because we want to do a full write up or whatever).

    I doubt it would be much better with git/hg/bzr because while these theoretically solve the issue of the branches quickly getting more and more difficult to reconcile at merge, they introduce two other issues:
    1. Team members need to learn the concepts of DVCS properly, with SVN you can more or less think of it as “update” and “commit”, and it just works 99% of the time. With DVCS there's a whole other layer of complexity, especially as team members have to learn about branching if we were to support regular snapshot builds.

      Arguably there's lots of merit in teaching them so we eventually might get to benefit from the added robustness of these approaches, but it's also much more invasive in their workflow than SVN ever was/will be.
    2. Mods consist of a directory structure, rather than a project structure. For instance it is perfectly reasonable to have only a couple of directories checked out on your laptop, rather than the whole hog. That tends to be harder (much harder) with DVCS'es as these typically default to importing not just the current working copy but *every* revision of *the whole* project. Splitting EB 2 into tons of little projects doesn't seem a very good way either (see 1).

    This is aside from the issue of tech support. If we could be reasonably sure that everyone playing with the trunk version did so to develop EB 2 further it might be a good idea. But the problem is those people playing with the trunk version of EB 2 to develop it further are called “EB Team members”, or “beta testers”, or “Campus Martius members” already. They already have access to daily versions of EB2 through SVN update.

    As for those who are not: they can apply in the recruitment threads...

    So all in all regular snapshots would wind up being a sink for tech support to people who don't want to develop or who do want to but don't have the skills to do so. At which point, sticking with reasonably well tested releases and beta testers seems the altogether more sensible option.
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; October 08, 2011 at 08:33 PM.
    -Tellos Athenaios
    CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool

    “ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  4. #4
    The excited one's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    i can see EB II is surfacing for a release within 6 to 18 months...........
    war is peace, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery......
    (george orwell 1984)

  5. #5

    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Quote Originally Posted by The excited one View Post
    i can see EB II is surfacing for a release within 6 to 18 months...........
    oh crap... you guys need a bigger team...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfire88 View Post
    you guys need a bigger team
    Join.

  7. #7
    The excited one's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldfire88 View Post
    oh crap... you guys need a bigger team...
    i think the EB II team is big already and also they have been doing it for the last 4 years......... (well 3 year after the release of EB 1.2) so i guess they might be starting to finish the beta or even done it but some annoying bug fixes (i personally not sure they progress but only guessed) and therefore i guess it would take them another year or even 2 to see the light of EBII

    Quote Originally Posted by XSamatan View Post
    if only people would read it....
    well when installing something even a game there is a condition about copyright blah blah and blah you can put a link for the installation guide there as part of the condition to install EBII (or its beta) but seriously if one not reading the installation guide he/she should not deserve EBII in the first place!

    so yeah............................................. and still waiting for the beta (finger crossed)

    Quote Originally Posted by XSamatan View Post
    Join.
    personally i wish i could join in but i m no modder nor computer guy just a typical gamer who know some bit about computer so long i can play the darn game
    Last edited by The excited one; October 10, 2011 at 07:09 PM.
    war is peace, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery......
    (george orwell 1984)

  8. #8
    Petroniu's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Quote Originally Posted by The excited one View Post
    i can see EB II is surfacing for a release within 6 to 18 months...........
    Now you've done it! I can see myself burrowing until within 6 to 18 months if it doesn't release...
    Last edited by Petroniu; January 30, 2012 at 01:19 PM.
    RTWRM - back to basics

  9. #9

    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Quote Originally Posted by The excited one View Post
    i can see EB II is surfacing for a release within 6 to 18 months...........

    lol

  10. #10
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Either case, now that you have scripts and servers ready you can whip up us a beta and show what you have so far.

  11. #11
    The excited one's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    are you asking for a premature release of the awesome EBII !? naaaaahhhhhhhhh just wait for another year and see how it comes up i mean its not like "one" of the mods that going to be like never gonna finish
    war is peace, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery......
    (george orwell 1984)

  12. #12

    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    Either case, now that you have scripts and servers ready you can whip up us a beta and show what you have so far.
    The tools to release are not ready yet, mainly to do with point 15. But that's okay, because neither are the code & content which we wish to put in the first release.
    -Tellos Athenaios
    CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool

    “ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    Either case, now that you have scripts and servers ready you can whip up us a beta and show what you have so far.
    Agree.
    Signature Removed - Read this.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Good news for the EB team II for custom cities

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...143858&page=33

    when the Bello Mundi is done, we can use their siege battle's maps!
    Last edited by Xoxoman; October 09, 2011 at 08:19 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Tellos.... Tell'os about progress in our Beloved dream called Europa Barbarorvm 2...

    Is it GREAT progress? Or just good progress?

    Tell'os what you think about it man :3

  16. #16
    The excited one's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    it seems that the release of the beta is in a count down (or is it??????). but the problems that you are pointing out is hard to happen because i always had mods that are over 1GB and doing it with the UAC in win7 ...... (may be my computer is good)

    i think you can put a installer guide by showing step by step pics and say where to put the files in MTW2 ........ like RSII or sth similar......
    war is peace, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery......
    (george orwell 1984)

  17. #17

    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Quote Originally Posted by The excited one View Post
    i think you can put a installer guide by showing step by step pics and say where to put the files in MTW2 ........ like RSII or sth similar......
    if only people would read it....

  18. #18
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    If they aren't able to install it, they aren't worthy to play it?

  19. #19
    medievaldude's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    EB 1 Instructions were easy, I guess EB II would be very clear with the instructions, and images i believe aren't required. JUST LET them learn by themselves

    Ductus Exemplo
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  20. #20
    The_Praetor's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Stele 8: release time...

    Seriously I cannot wait for EBII, EBI was simply amazing and with the improved graphics of Medieval 2 EBII will be magnificent

    If I knew how to mod games I would definitely help out

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