How to use Siphonatores effectively?

[bluemagician]

I've started Late Era campaign with Romans.
And after quite a struggle.. I've reclaimed Constantinople..
and waited another 12 turns for Scolarii Barrack..
and waited few more turns for recruitment pool to replenish..

And alas!! I got the famous Siphonatores!!
(still waiting for Scolarii, though..)

But I'm having a bit hard time finding a practical way to use them on the field..;;
I've read some posts that says they are excellent on siege defences,

they seem quite fragile to enemy melee/missiles..
and their numbers are well.. small..(which is critical cuz you can only recruit them in Constantinople)
and their short range and the devestating friendly fires..

can't seem to find a place for them in the field.

where do you deploy them in the field?
and how do you control them?
what kind of task do you give them to opperate?

I was really looking forward to use the most unique unit in MTW2..
but it's well.. abit disappointing ^^:

plz teach me how to use them well~

thanx for the answers

[Liandro]

I rarely use them in the field, usually for city assault/defense, but on the occasion that I do use them on the field. I place them behind my other troops and with their auto-shoot off, when the fighting starts, if opportunity arises, I run them around the huge fight and blast right into the enemy rear, far better than any horse charge, they set off a gigantic panic flee domino effect on the enemy, then... I win... not sure how else to use them in a field battle, hills and stakes for starters....

[The_Nord]

What I have done in a few sieges where I've defended is that I use them as a sort of last defence, when all of the enemy troops are through the gates or breaches in the walls, I usually put some infantry far back, near the flag thing in a settlement, when the enemy reach them and engage them I go with the siphonatores and the back of this tightly packed horde of enemies pushing through my streets, as backup for the siphonatores I usually use some infantry. The Siphonatores can really wreack some serious havoc this way against a tightly packed enemy with only two directions to go, forwards or backwards.

[oxxid]

Look here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9B7h...layer_embedded

[Basileus Antiochus]

I put them on the flank of the gate, when the enemy rush in, burn em. I tried using them in field battle too, doesn't work so well, they don't seem to fire "fire" very well, either they just don't, or they'll burn everybody, but its a lot of fun still

[Moritol]

I combine the Mourtatoi's stakes with them. So when the battle starts, I let my archers run elsewhere (behind a shieldwall) and place my siphos behind those stakes so they can burn the first infantry wave, if they are out of ammo, I let them flee.

Iy the enemy has a massive amount of HA and normal archers, I don't use them or I just keep one unit in reserve behind my lines.

[Angrychris]

lol. they were meant for open field battle but r better for territory defense

[Rat-tail]

Well , I like the way they are.

It is playing with fire after all, it is VERY dangerous to handle and use. That is why it NEVER spread to wide use in any army , even if it was known as a devastating weapon.

As for using this unit ... I use in moderation and not near my men. Place them on a flank.

[David93]

yes place them behind your own units, run them around the flank and shoot at the enemies rear.

[Dahoota]

As other people have said, they aren't really ideal for open battles - rather for sieges instead, usually defending a gate.

I find them incredibly useful if your enemy decides to defend the town square in large numbers - especially if they insist on staying there and forcing you to fight them to the death. The trick is keeping them just off the square so the AI doesn't engage you.

[Mr Kriegtooth]

As noted, some of the best in defenders

As for field battles, I just keep them at the front and launch a few blasts at a charging enemy. *shrugs*

[TITANAS84]

i use 2 units of them at every big army.At sieges(defence) i use one at the gates because if the enemy break gate they send all army,imagine siphonatores,boil oil at gates and spearmen back.the other unit i send them to plaza for the last stand.
At siege(offence) i use them only if the enemy is gathered to plazza.
At open field if the enemy have big cavarly i protect them behind spearmen close to general.If anyone break the line of spearmen is dead.

[bluemagician]

thanx for the replies~
i guess i'll have to wait for somebody(probably Mongols or the Turks) to knock on my town gates to see what they are worth for

[Homeros]

They are the ultimate flanking units. To get the most out of em, you need to hit enemy units in their flank (not from behind). My Roman armies have 4-5 Mourtatoi archers who will pepper the enemy with missiles and form the main battleline. A couple of cavalry units will protect the flanks. It's important to hold your cavalry back whenever possible, the moment they start moving the enemy will change formation and instead of advancing in a straight line towards yours, it will use units in reserve to protect the main line against cavalry charges (and that's not what you are looking for right now).

Let the enemy units attack your line of archers (make sure you've destroyed the enemy cavalry with your archers first); the moment the enemy line hits yours, send those pyros forward (who are stationed behind the archers on both flanks - one unit per flank is enough); flank the enemy line and burn them. Siphonatores can one-shot all units (over 200 kills per blast), but only attack units who are already engaged (that's what the archers are for) coz they are unable to fire when they're in melee themselves. Work your way towards the middle - you can destroy / route full-stacks in less than a minute.

X ========== X [enemy line] [X = siphons]
Cav ========== Cav [your line]

The most important thing to remember is to attack units who are fighting someone else. Placing them in the main line is almost useless since the delay before actually firing allows most units to charge them before they are able to shoot. Use them like cavalry but with mirrored attacks. A stretched unit is best charged from behind by cavalry, pyros have to hit them in the flank to get the best results. Hitting units in their flank will also reduce the number of frienly fire casualties. It's great to watch the enemy army run away, but it's not really funny to cause panick in your own ranks.

A general, two cavalry units, two pyros and 4-5 archers can beat almost any army in the field. You only lose some archers, but they can be (re)trained anywhere (you don't need a WC with Pro training staff to recruit Mourtatio).

[popovic]

A general, two cavalry units, two pyros and 4-5 archers can beat almost any army in the field. You only lose some archers, but they can be (re)trained anywhere (you don't need a WC with Pro training staff to recruit Mourtatio).

And I just replied (in another thread) that Late Byzzies are tough...

[bluemagician]

Let the enemy units attack your line of archers (make sure you've destroyed the enemy cavalry with your archers first);

thanx for the good advice Homeros!

Just one question.. is it possible to destroy enemy cavalry with just 5~6 archers
before getting charged?
or are you referring to stakes to take on enemy cavalry?

[Homeros]

You're welcome.

Quality archers will destroy almost all cav units very easily. Only top-trier units with very strong armor will be problematic, but the Romans have their own uber-cavalry units to deal with those (Scolarii FTW), and you can use Roman X-bowmen after 1300. The usual suspects (Turks, Fatamids, Mongols, Hungarians, Venetians, Kiev) don't have access to such cav units until very late.

Make sure you turn off "fire at will". Your archers should focus on the enemy cavalry units only, enemy infantry are the pyro's business. 4-5 good archers are usually all you need to take out the few heavy cavalry units (most enemies surrounding the Romans use lots of HA - not heavy cavalry. (Foot) archers are also the best units to deal with enemy HA which is one of the reasons why my Roman armies have a lot of archers). Mourtatoi are also potent melee fighters, they have decent armor, a shield and a sword. They will do well in melee against the poor quality (spear) infantry of the east and will hold their ground long enough to allow pyro and cav flanking maneuvers.

The only thing you should worry about are enemy armies with lots of archers. You should always have enough fire-power to beat the enemy in a skirmish. So when you're up against a Turkish army with many Ottoman / Turkish Archer units (and HA), you may need a couple extra archer units to bolster the ranks, or you can add one or two fast moving cav units to chase them of the field.

Don't forget your own cavalry, they are important to protect your flanks and to deal with enemy cavalry (if your archers are not enough). When your cavalry can roam around freely, you can also use them to draw enemy units into a "pyro trap". Enemy spearmen will charge cavalry blindly when they get close, so when the enemy has units in reserve (units that can potentially attack your pyros on the flanks) you can use your cav to draw them away or into perfect pyro position.

IMO siphonatores are one of the most powerful units in SS(6.4) - one blast will kill almost any unit completely, but they require a little work to be truly effective. The thing I had to get used to is the ~10 second delay between clicking on the enemy unit you want to attack and the actual carnage. As soon as you get some feel for the timing (and distance), those Siphonatores are pretty much unstoppable.

P.S. I don't use stakes (house rule) but they are certainly effective to keep enemy cavalry at bay. The downside is your own cavalry cannot charge the enemy line from behind without losing many men on your own stakes. I'll say stakes are OK as long as you don't rely on your cavalry to route the enemy - stakes have little to no effect on approaching infantry units. They can in fact work counter-productive coz they do tend to ruin enemy formations. Pyros are best against tightly packed enemy units.
Also try to form a wide line (3 archers deep or so). It will reduce FF casualties and you want as many enemy units possible engaged before moving in the Siphonatores. If I have time, I'll try to make a couple screenies to clarify.