Alright, we have not made progress here for way too long, but now that we have solved one of the biggest bugs plaguing the builds a lot of stuff can be implemented again without worrying about crashing every time before we get to the 15th turn or so.
For this thread, we discuss the basic underlying buildings structure. for those who are not aware, here's some basic facts on modding the buildings.
A. There is a limit to how many buildings you can have, 128 trees and 9 buildings max per tree. keep that in mind when you suggest buidlings, there's a limitation to how many a mod can have. though since AUH doesn't max out on factions this should be less of a problem then some other mods
B. The same building can have different names for different factions, for example a market can be called Shi for the Song and Machi for the Japanese faction etc...
C.There is a couple of buildings that abosalutely must be in there or the game will crash, it's the two core building types and the two type of ports. though as long as their entry exist in the EDB it'll work, it doesnt' have to exist in game wise.
D. Buildings can be the req of other buildings obviously, (for example you must have A and B buidling to be able to build C) and also through script you can also make buildings the req of units (for example aside from the building that produce this unit building A must also exist in the settlement for that unit to be trained)
E.The effects of a building has no limitation that I'm aware of, a building can easily have a massive array of effect (both positive and negative) at the same time.
F.The buildings effect can also be impacted by other buildings or resources or hidden resources, for example If I have say for example. Market and Road, I can set Market's effect to correlate with Road, for example a stable build in region with horse resource could have additional bonuses (lower upkeep cost for example).
F. The EDB is a relatively easy part of the game to edit, so suggest away and don't worry, if you can expand on it later it's not hard to edit.
So discuss away, I'd guess the basic outline must involve something like this.
Core building : the Town / City / Large City type of structure, it needs to be tied with the population.
Military buidlling : factions can share though I'd guess there at least needs to be several different types here, also I would generally suggest a mostly seperate building for each faction, as it would be unrealistic for a faction to takeover another one's high end military production building and immediately begin to use it for himself. the best way to avoid this would be to have one building for each faction.
Economic building : This will obviously be complicated. a wide variety of building exist
Governance building : ole MTW largely tie this to the Core building, but that's not really always the most logical idea, we could do them seperately.
Other buildings : technology / academy related stuff, these can be tied with the other buildings as their reqs or other effects .
I'll start by posting some general stuff on the Song on the next post
Last edited by RollingWave; October 04, 2011 at 11:23 AM.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
Song military : The Song military is clear cut, it had a imperial army and also local armies called the Xian, the first is well equiped and usually pretty well trained but is almost entirely located at the capital . the Xian can be spread everywhere but almost always quite poorly trained / equiped, in some region / periods militia is also used.
Basic building:
Imperial Army Barrack
Build req : the capital of the Song dynasty (can set req so that if you switch capital the effect of the building disappear)
Builds : Basically all the Song's imperial troops (though some might need additional buildings.)
Effect : a very high upkeep cost (say -2000 every turn.)
Req: probably some basic government building, can be build anywhere except the Song capital.
Builds: Xian troops, highest level can build limited amount of Imperial troops.
Effect : low to medium upkeep cost. slight improvement in law(?).
Militia barracks : (something like Militia organization, Militia drill yard.)
Req: anywhere but probably needs to be tied with government buildings
Builds: militia troops (Some may require additional buildings)
Effect: Improves law and happiness, but also lowers income very considerablly .
Additional buildings that may effect recruitment.
Gunpowder related buildings : obviously gunpowder troops need these to be built
Stables: again, cavalries need these to be built can also be set to improve cavalry's effectiveness.
Archery and Siege workshop: obviously builds siege units, some range units either need this or can be improved by them .
Last edited by RollingWave; October 04, 2011 at 04:50 AM.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
After discussing a bit with Alex last night, some aspect I think should be clear.
A. Walls will be detached from the core settlements, unlike most other mods, you will NOT upgrade your walls simply by upgrading the core settlement. this is so we can have more realistic settlements such as Mongolian and Japanese onces which may have been unwalled despite being large.
B. I'll lay down the general economic / resource layout first, should get it down by this weekend.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
I think this site has some potentially useful information on government/economic/military strcuture as well as some interesting bureaus/ministries we can include.
Ok, I tested out the seperation of core buildings from walls and it works perfectly fine. the question now is...
A. do we want Wooden pallisades? IIRC the only Chinese settlements that might use them were very small villages ... almost any town worth their spit would rather be unwalled then to use something like that (and the settlements represented in game were almost all very large towns at worst). but I'd imagine other culture used them?
B. We could start thinking about the different limitations for different factions on walls now that they are seperated from the core buildings. for example.. some region may not be able to build walls no matter who's running it (like some nomadic tribal settlements) while others may be limited by factions (like Japan, though it is plausible we give event counters so they can build them if they achieve certain goals... like aka if they manage to succesfully take a Korean / Chinese settlement or three)
Though I may set the special nomadic settlements by using the Castle Core building so we don't need to worry about walls for them. (as they won't be able to build any)
Currently used slots : 21 / 128 (though a couple may be removed like castle roads and some can be reviewed.)
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
Will for now base it mostly off basic M2TW system, though I use my SS sub mod version which have been heavily redfined to make a lot more sense and interest (as most will come with a variety of bonus AND penalties, for example buildings that increase trade will at the higher levels probably also decrease law and health.)
Some buildings that obviously will be in (using common names for now, probably will rename in game later)
Port
Sea Trade (Merchant Wharf / Dockalnds etc)
Roads
Markets
Tavern / Inns
Farms (the level you can build up to will depend on region and faction.)
Herding based building (some areas can only build these and not farms, some areas the other way around, and some areas both to different degrees)
River Ports
Mines
I will also introduce economic buildings based along resources, for example a "commercial farming" building for regions with resource like fruits / tea / sugarcane . logging buildings in areas with timber etc.. aside from economic benifits some might have other as well (such as Logging buildings will help decrease cost of buildings)
There will be significant differences in what economic buildings factions and regions can build (or at least more capable of building). to create a larger sense of diversity.
Last edited by RollingWave; October 06, 2011 at 12:08 PM.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
Obviously it would be cool if we have terms for all factions ....
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
What about border markets ? How will they be handled as I know they were important and strictly controlled.
It'll probably use a different building, like the caravan buildin in M2TW ... though I need to think up how I can control building them specifically ON THE BORDER .. the best idea I can think of now is to have specific "border" hidden resource so that only certain regions can build them (obviously the border zones between different cultures) but still that would create some unrealistic situations.... though probably better than nothing
Last edited by RollingWave; October 09, 2011 at 12:20 PM.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
A very quick draw, see sheet section RW draft in the excel.
One must take into account that the EDB tree is limited to 128 with all the walls / guilds included (and actually maybe not that many, because AUH don't use castle but IIRC there is at least 2 slot that must be reserved as Castle structures.), so we need to try and find a good balance for it's use. for my own preference and my experience working on my SS submod, I would suggest we try to give a unique tree to all faction's executive and military branch, a few may or may not cross (most notably japan) while not all of them may be of the same level (standard is probably 4 level, but some may have 3). while some may have their executive and military in the same branch (Mongols are a likely candidate).
So the estimate is that this will take up around 30-35 slots , a lot, but worth it I think.
Generally, what will happen is that if Faction A takes over a Faction B area, he'll automatically demolish Faction B's executive / military branch buildings, this represent what usually happens, the new faction owner will need to rebuild the local political structure from the ground up again (though usually not too time consuming, but it's an added cost and problem of conquest). and before that is fully finished local unrest will be a very significant issue.
I have put a list of all factions of AUH in that excel with the executive branch, so far I have input Song / Jin / Xi Xia / Goryeo / Kara Khitan executive branch levels in there. (could be adjusted obviously but I'm fairly confident in those). as you can see I have their names listed in Pin-Yin and Chinese. a quick example.
Tree name : Executive Branch Song
Level : County / State / Province / Central
Pin Yin Name : Xian / Zhou / Fu / Zhong Shu Meng Xia
Original Language name : 縣/州/府 /中書門下
Note: highest level building is limited to 1 for that faction, if your original one is lost, you can rebuild it, but not otherwise.
This will require a lot of input obviously, help from those with good knowledge of various faction will help (especially those not in China) . for example, the highest level for a Japanese one is probably Bakufu, but what's the once under it?
I attached the files below, anyone with good suggestion can try to fill in or just post it here and I'll try to compile.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
This is great - the EDB is yours to own from now on.
I can provide quite a bit for Khmer/Srivijaya etc I think from research I have and will post it here. Sure our Vietnamese friends can fill in the blanks for the Dai Viet.
I think its a good idea to work in spreadsheets to give us an overview.
yeah, i'll put it in a sheet when we have most of it inserted of course, though right now I only have the more obvious Chinese related once (and some I"m not sure, for example Kara-Khitan, basic source that they're similar to Liao but I kinda doubt, though I do have a separate tree to represent independent regions that are only allied . which should be useful as pretty much all faction have those more or less.)
I'll write a comprehensive list this week on what I think the basic tree must at least include.
Last edited by RollingWave; January 21, 2013 at 01:10 AM.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
A little progress, will try to get it done before Chinese new year ends certainly. (how do you post spread sheets directly here?)
Some prelimary building plans.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
1.Core building Wall : required, limited in how much you can change
2.Core building Castle : required, maybe not used
3.Port: required, obviously will use.
4.Castle Port: required, probably won't use
5.School : plans with Chinese names (different names may apply for different cultures)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Local School Xiang Xue 鄉學
District School Fu Xue 府學
Famous School Shu Yuan 書院
Education Department Guo Zhi Jian 國子監
Market: plans with Chinese names (different names may apply for different cultures)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Shi ji 市集
Xu Shi 墟市
Tsao Shi 草市
Gui Shi 鬼市
Shang Hui 商會
Inn: plans with Chinese names (different names may apply for different cultures)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Inn Ke Zhang 客棧
Hotel Fang Dian 飯店
Large Hotels Da Fang Dian 大飯店
Roads: plans with Chinese names (different names may apply for different cultures)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Roads Lu 路
Large Roads Guang Dao 官道
Postal Service Yi Zhang 驛站
Large Postal Station(?) Da Yi Zhang 大驛站
Taxation: something like this, again mostly based off Song names first.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Tax Collection Shui Li / Li Zheng 稅吏 /吏政
Regional tax office Li Shi 吏司
Government Monopoly Zhuang Mai 專賣
Central Tax department Shan Shi 三司
Custom Duty: this may require a bit more thoughts but this is for now, may split into two building I think (one for sea one for standard / border)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Check Points Guang Ko 關口
Foreign duty regulation Shi Bo Shi 市舶司
Foreign Residential Area Fang Shian 藩巷
Local Independence : these buildings represent local AOR and indepdent rulers. if the faction build their normal buildings they'll mostly neglect this building's effect, it's more or less to reflect how most faction have client kingdoms / autonomous region to some extend.
Most likely 3 level, using Song as example the names will be Ji Mi Xian, Ji Mi Zhou, Tu Xi / Shu Guo 羈縻縣 羈縻州 土司/屬國 (Autonomous County / Autonomous State / Autonomous Kingdoms )
Executive Branch Song : these buildings reflect their political system, like county / province etc.. it's sort of like the M2TW's Town hall but much more important. some faction's recruitment may also be tied into this, while others may be separate. most will have 4 level, some may have 3. highest level typically restricted to the Capital.
Song levels :
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
County Xian 縣
State Zhou 州
Province Fu 府
Central Zhong Shu Meng Xia 中書門下
Executive Branch Jin
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
County Xian 縣
State Zhou 州
Province Fu 府
Central Shang Shu Sheng 尚書省
Executive Branch Xi Xia
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[QUOTECounty Xian 縣
State Zhou 州
Province Fu 府
Central Zhong Shu Xi 中書司
][/QUOTE]
Executive Branch Goryeo (need confirmation)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
County Xian 縣
State Zhou 州
Province Dao 道
Central Jin 京
Executive Branch Kara-Khitan (need confirmation)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
County Xian 縣
State Zhou 州
Province Dao 道
Central Jin 京
Executive Branch Dali : need info
Executive Branch Mongols : need info
Executive Dai Viet : need info
Executive Champa : need info
Executive Pagan : need info
Executive Tibet : need info
Executive Khmer : need info
Executive Japan : need info, maybe split in 2, highest level is probably Bakufu but whats the others?
Executive Sena : : need info
Executive Srivijaya: : need info
This of course, are not final, but more of a general approach and guideline to how our EDB will probably work, any info or feed back is welcomed.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
One aspect I'm not entirely sure is religious building, the way I see it school already ties a lot with religious building for the Song... or rather that school and temples are not clearly separated for a significant number of factions . (then again, I could also add in other "religious" buildings ... hmmmm... but it is clear that the center of spreading Dao Xue was the schools. while likewise factions like Tibet, it's Temples were it's schools more or less.) my guess is that i'll also add in religion building that doesn't directly represent the factions main religion (like Daoist Temple, or Shinto Shrines). how to actually do the bonus for those will be interesting but we're not there yet.
Some faction that I see obvious cross over between Executive / Military are...
Mongols
Japanese factions
those 2 are obvious, don't know enough about the SE asian faction to say for sure though.
Tibet is another possible candidate, though I really know nothing about it for this period. it's something of a dark age for them.
Last edited by RollingWave; January 30, 2013 at 07:57 PM.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
in regards to religion, I think it is well worth re-visiting Chris's posts and the discussion on this thread . we went into quite a lot of detail in regards to religious buildings in AUH.
At this point I list about 90 building give or take a few, so it seems we still have room to work with, though I havn't placed any guilds in there since that's more problematic.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
1) Each building tree can only promote one religion. You cannot have one building that promotes one religions and another upgrade that promotes a different religion.
2) Any building with the prefix "hinterland_" cannot be destroyed but can be damaged.
3) Any building with the prefix "temple_" will automatically be destroyed if a faction of another religion conquers this settlement.
1) Each building tree can only promote one religion. You cannot have one building that promotes one religions and another upgrade that promotes a different religion.
2) Any building with the prefix "hinterland_" cannot be destroyed but can be damaged.
3) Any building with the prefix "temple_" will automatically be destroyed if a faction of another religion conquers this settlement.
Hi Unanime5: I am well aware of the later 2, but the first one should be that it only promote the religion of the faction holding the building no?
So in theory, you could have say.. Mosque and Church as the same building, just naming them differently for different cultures.
1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....
Buildings discussion
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Originally Posted by Yelü Dashi
