Does spiritual belief and practice (for regular people who aren't psychotic) create a psychologically healthier state of being?

[Helm]

To me that is what the religion may ultimately be all about, along with a sense of a cultural identity and a general sense of belonging to something greater than yourself. Unlike a say a dog the human mind doesn't seem entirely content to just exist as it is there has to be some kind of a deeper meaning or purpose. Back in the not so distant past people won't have any idea what caused lightning or what the Sun was so requiring some kind of supernaturnal explanation involving some kind of a god, but we have moved well beyond all that stage thanks to comparatively recent scientific progress.

The potential advantages I can think of are.

1) A reduced sense of ego

2) Reduced aggression/hostility

3) Increased empathy for your fellow man

4) Reduced fear of death

5) Increased abilty to cope with bereavement

6) Increased ability to deal with the adversity in life in general

7) Reduced interest in physical wealth and sensual pleasures

8) A clear framework that governs moral conduct


Or would it be possible IYO to get all this from a purely atheistic/material and non-religious/supernatural philosophy of life? Or are you better to just be like the dog who just gets on with the business of being alive while its alive?

[Ancient Aliens]

My opinion is quite contrary to your own. I think that the thought of having a third party observation of your life that will ultimately determine your spiritual fate practically breeds psychosis. For example, I recently read an article about a teenager not wanting to masterbate because he was afraid that his dead grandparents and God were watching him from heaven. I think that religion in general is terribly unhealthy from a mental standpoint.

[Helm]

I didn't give an opinion but people must be getting something of great value out of it if religion still exists? Particularly now that for the most part belief is optional, perhaps not in the Islamic world. And also now that science now explains virtually everything religion and the supernatural used to explain, with the exception of where the universe came from. There is the issue of what happens after death but there is a general scientific consensus on that.

[Portuguese Rebel]

1) A reduced sense of ego

I don't see how considering that you're special and god is listening to your prayers reduce your ego. I see the opposite.

2) Reduced aggression/hostility

Centuries of religion fueled violence contradicts this

3) Increased empathy for your fellow man

Are you kidding me? Increased empathy for the guys who share your beliefs, the rest are the "unfaithful" and are fair game. If you go beyond the modern rhetoric this is what you see.

4) Reduced fear of death

False. Theists pray not to die. Run to the hospital when god does not answer.

5) Increased abilty to cope with bereavement

BS... They cry and they grieve just as anyone. Even when they say pre-made sentences like "He/She is in a better place". If they trully believed that crap they would be lining to go. But deep down the animal self preservation instincts makes them know that's all BS.

6) Increased ability to deal with the adversity in life in general

Depends on what you mean by deal with it. If by "deal" you mean fall hopelessly on your knees and pray to feel better, then maybe (although it seems it doesn't quite work because they still feel miserable). But if you mean "deal" as in actually taking your fate in your hands and actually do something about your problems, realizing that there isn't a big daddy in the sky doing it for you, then no way...

7) Reduced interest in physical wealth and sensual pleasures

Interest in physical wealth is never limited to atheists. In fact, in my experience, most atheists are pretty detached from a need to make money. So i don't see how that works. And sensual pleasures? Is that an advantage? How? What advantage is there to deprive yourself from the fine things in life (because most theists actually don't deprive themselves either)?

8) A clear framework that governs moral conduct

As in this case?

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
VS
"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)

Following this god's example what should you be?

Or

Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)

So, should you boast or not about good deeds?

Finally, if the "moral framewoork" really exists, why do people within the same religion can't even agree on what it is?
And, does a rigid "moral framework" really a thing you want?

[Helm]

I don't see how considering that you're special and god is listening to your prayers reduce your ego. I see the opposite.

Christians have to humble themselves before God as unworthy sinners and pray for forgiveness and Muslims have to completely submit themselves to Allah. So it probably doesn't boast the ego at all if you're doing it the way it ought to be done.

Centuries of religion fueled violence contradicts this

Though far more people have died in history secular non-religious wars and regimes. And even the religious violence often had an underlying poltical motive anyway.

Are you kidding me? Increased empathy for the guys who share your beliefs, the rest are the "unfaithful" and are fair game. If you go beyond the modern rhetoric this is what you see.

But there is always framework in place that says you should have empathy for your fellow man regardless of who they are or what they believe. See for instance the story of the good Samaritan and of course the golden rule.

False. Theists pray not to die. Run to the hospital when god does not answer.

I just meant in the general everyday sense. Its sensible to go for real medical treatment than rely on divine intervention alone like Christian Scientists.

BS... They cry and they grieve just as anyone. Even when they say pre-made sentences like "He/She is in a better place". If they trully believed that crap they would be lining to go. But deep down the animal self preservation instincts makes them know that's all BS.

But they still have some form of consolation within the context of their religion, and there are also specific ceremonies and ways of honouring the dead and so on. So they may not be 100% sure that they will be reunited with their loved ones but they have a framework for it.

Depends on what you mean by deal with it. If by "deal" you mean fall hopelessly on your knees and pray to feel better, then maybe (although it seems it doesn't quite work because they still feel miserable). But if you mean "deal" as in actually taking your fate in your hands and actually do something about your problems, realizing that there isn't a big daddy in the sky doing it for you, then no way...

But perhaps they may draw strength and inspiration from their religion that then allows them to better do what you described. They don't have to do it all by themselves or at least they don't think they have to even if that is in fact the case.

Interest in physical wealth is never limited to atheists. In fact, in my experience, most atheists are pretty detached from a need to make money. So i don't see how that works. And sensual pleasures? Is that an advantage? How? What advantage is there to deprive yourself from the fine things in life (because most theists actually don't deprive themselves either)?

Again religions often have a framework where material pleasures and attachments are considered to be a potential barrier to true spiritual happiness and contentment in life. And they certainly are if you become unhealthly obsessed with them. So if people have that framework and genuinely follow it they will become less prone to alcoholism, drug abuse and so on if they're that way orientated.

Finally, if the "moral framewoork" really exists, why do people within the same religion can't even agree on what it is?

If you just look at the basic core values of what a religion actually teaches in regard as how best to live and treat others a lot of it is good common sense.

And, does a rigid "moral framework" really a thing you want?

I think it has the potential to help who may otherwise be in need of it, even you yourself don't particularly need anything like that.

[Amorphos]

For the individual seeker I think it makes life harder more unhealthy, generally religion attacks the ego which is usually negative though can bring rewards. The problem is that its incessant, after a point detachment has a negative product/effect.

For society generally I think its improved it vastly.

{burnings aside}

[Helm]

I like the general idea of religion seems to be trying to do I just have three small problems with it?

1) It gives power to corrupt indivuduals who want to gain opoltical influence and power over people, as well as money.

2) It can cause division and tribalism fostering a "us and them" mentality with can lead to segregation and conflict.

3) A lot of this stuff is going to be based on things that aren't in fact actually true.

And if the supernatural is real we can forget about ever understanding what the universe is or how it works because it's a magical kind of a thing ultimately that can't in fact ever be explained, which is a real downer.

[Taiji]

I like the general idea of religion seems to be trying to do I just have three small problems with it?

Tiny tip: Don't stick a question mark at the end of a statement about what you think - It makes you seem a bit crazy, like you're asking others what you are thinking...

[Helm]

Tiny tip: Don't stick a question mark at the end of a statement about what you think - It makes you seem a bit crazy, like you're asking others what you are thinking...

It's a typo, so I don't think its anything for you to worry about?

[Taiji]

It's a typo, so I don't think its anything for you to worry about?

Ok now that made me laugh, I'm just hoping it's an intentional joke

ToS says this:

Posting excessively in capital letters, leet speak, or other hard-to-read writing styles

And I think using a question mark instead of a full-stop is a hard to read writing style - Just sayin

[Denny Crane!]

The Abrahamic religions are a bit authoritian but you could argue its good for spiritual discipline, there's some backbone there it isn't all pink and fluffy. You don't get that so much in the eastern religions which are more contemplative.

.

I could also argue it does all the things I mentioned earlier in the thread. And I did argue that. So...

Tiny tip: Don't stick a question mark at the end of a statement about what you think - It makes you seem a bit crazy, like you're asking others what you are thinking...

I don't think it makes me seem crazy?

[Taiji]

I don't think it makes me seem crazy?

I'm crazy enough to know what you're thinking that you don't know you're thinking?

[Helm]

I could also argue it does all the things I mentioned earlier in the thread. And I did argue that. So...

Not all Christians are members of the Opus Dei who practice "morification of the flesh", some of them are almost completely normal regular people like you with much the same moral values and so on. But if you prefer just concentrate more on the Eastern religions such as Buddhism (which you practice?) which seem a bit more docile. They still have the spiritual "substance" but an entirely different set of supernatural stuff that you have to utterly delude yourself into believing because science proved it conclusively wrong beyond all doubt at some point in history. Even though some people don't understand this yet, it should be a simple case of presenting them with the evidence in question.

[Denny Crane!]

Not all Christians are members of the Opus Dei who practice "morification of the flesh", some of them are almost completely normal regular people like you with much the same moral values and so on. But if you prefer just concentrate more on the Eastern religions such as Buddhism (which you practice?) which seem a bit more docile. They still have the spiritual "substance" but an entirely different set of supernatural stuff that you have to utterly delude yourself into believing because science proved it conclusively wrong beyond all doubt at some point in history, even though some people don't understand this yet.

Yet the substance, the holy book, your own argument is the very thing that is flawed. You are just obfuscating here. You can argue vague spiritualism, theism with a lemon twist gives people hope and they might vaguely label themselves Christian and be pretty cool or you can argue that the Bible gives moral rigour and foundation but what you can't do is bounce between the two positions depending on which one I attack which is what you are doing now.

Stop flip flopping, decide on a position. Yes or no, do you believe the bible provides a healthy moral and ethical foundation which leads to a psychologically healthy individual?

[LSJ]

The potential advantages I can think of are.

1) A reduced sense of ego

Ego is more a personality trait that can find any reason to flourish. Something as simple as being good at racing cars can make a man full of himself. People with a tendency to have big egos will always have them, at least outwardly, since people who feel that they are unimportant may take any opportunity to try to pull themselves above everyone else, socially. Humility is a trait not embraced by most humans.

2) Reduced aggression/hostility

On the contrary, a religious text upon which you base your religion telling you that other people are criminals in the eyes of god can promote aggression. Religion can be divisive. Even within the communityit may foster violence against gay men, adulterers, people who eat banned foods, etc.

3) Increased empathy for your fellow man

This can be true, but again it is limited by who the religion qualifies as deserving empathy.

4) Reduced fear of death
5) Increased abilty to cope with bereavement
6) Increased ability to deal with the adversity in life in general

These are things I love about religion. Without it, death is scary. When you believe in an afterlife, death is just another phase, and would be much easier to deal with. When your mother dies, you know she is not gone forever. And if your life is hard, you know you will still be rewarded in the best fashion possible.

7) Reduced interest in physical wealth and sensual pleasures

I wish people took this part of religion more seriously. Conservatives confuse me. Many of them are part of a religion that promotes charity and rejects greed, yet they are so against social programs to help the poor, and want as low a tax rate as possible so they can have as much money as possible. Very strange beliefs that go against their supposed convictions.

8) A clear framework that governs moral conduct

This is like empathy. It works both ways. Every religion I know of promotes one way of life and punishes those that stray. You may be told not to kill, but the same religion may tell you that certain people are deserving of death, even saying how the killing is to be carried out.

In theory a religion could exist that fights the flaws and solely promotes kindness and charity without promoting punishment and discrimination. But I have not yet found one.

[Helm]

I think when it comes to surrendering the ego and finding contentment without so much in the way of material goods and base physical needs (and the rest of it all) the Eastern religions are a lot better than what we ended up with. However you will still find all this at the core of Christianity if you look at what Jesus actually taught. And Mohammed as well when he was in a good mood. So the general ideal I think it actually good, and there's all the art, architecture, music and stuff which we likely would likely not have seen had everyone just not believed in anything and particularly and followed the "way of the dog". Though Dogs are actually quite happy 100% of the time (unless they have a good immediate physical reason not to be) you'll notice, they have no existential baggage within them.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

A little bit presumptuous.
When I was a religious small child, I was terrified of death. When I became an atheist, the fear was gone; This is my one life, and I'm going to live it good.

And that clear framework of moral conduct hasn't been particularly effective over the centuries.

[Playfishpaste]

Well, the latest science shows that it depends.

Particularly, it depends on how well-developed your country is. Under-developed countries will see psychological improvement from religious belief. Developed countries will see psychological impairment from religious belief.

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2011-16524-001/

[Helm]

A little bit presumptuous.
When I was a religious small child, I was terrified of death. When I became an atheist, the fear was gone; This is my one life, and I'm going to live it good.

I didn't have much of a mortality awareness as a child I just asssociated religion with boring singing and Christmas plays where you have to dress up as donkey.

As long as you're comfortable with the idea of potentially dying sometome this year, this month, this week or today. That's the kind of mortality awareness religion could be better at providing as it's not just something you're trying to avoid. While your own death when you're actually dead wouldn't be an issue because you wouldn't be there you'll be there for the death of loved ones so that's something religion can prime people up for as well. It can prime a few people up a bit too much though.



They were really very eager to get into heaven.

[Blau&Gruen]

Does spiritual belief and practice (for regular people who aren't psychotic) create a psychologically healthier state of being?

Reading poetry and humor - if you let pass this as spiritual practice - can probably create psychologically healthier states of being (= luck).

Things with aeroplanes will probably not or leave just very short and self-centred moment(s) of luck before they end in a terminate form of loneliness.