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  1. #1

    Default Testudo vs elephants

    I wanted to share with you all this find I experienced today. I played a very curious battle against Kart'hadast. Their entire army consisted of skirmishers and one unit of lesser elephants (can't really remember name). My legion was 1st cohors, 9 cohortes reformatae, 5 units of Aichmetai (spelling?) and some heavy skirmisher cavalry from Italy.
    I didn't want to chase them so as soon as my legionaries and light infantry had exhausted their pila I put legionaries into testudinis formatio and light infantry in loose formation. I feared that testudo will be extremely dangerous for legionaries when elephants attack, but I did it anyway. so this happened (won't recount all the other details) elephants charged one of my testudoes and it got bogged down. you know how tight formations get slaughtered by elephants (numbers start dropping like flies). but this DID NOT happen to testudo. they stood their ground and I lost somewhere up to 10 men (since this was not a test I didn't write it down) then I ordered skirmisher cavalry to pelt elephants with javelins and in no time they were gone. done to that last one of them!!!!
    maybe I am kicking the long dead horse, so my question is - are there other accounts of this tactic?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    A bit off topic.... Wth are Aichmetai? I've never used Testudo so i dunno

  3. #3

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Aichmetai are a light infantry from the south Italy. quite good actually. they throw javelins before charge and are armed with light spears and medium shields

  4. #4
    Entropy Judge's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    More properly, the Aichmetai Leukanoi. Awesome light troops, they're pretty much Peltastai with Spears.
    I beat back their first attack with ease. Properly employed, E's can be very deadly, deadlier even than P's and Z's, though they're not as lethal as Paula Abdul or Right Said Fred.
    ~ Miaowara Tomokato, Samurai Cat Goes to the Movies

  5. #5

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    EJ, thanks for posting full unit name for Aichmetai.
    OT - so has anyone tested it? is it a wide spread tactic that only poor me didn't know of? and yes, EJ, I am looking at you! you are one of the acclaimed and established authorities on tactics in RTW and EB especially.

    EDIT:
    On the side note, my Aichmetai don't skirmish... is it intended or is it the infamous RTW engine limitation yet again?
    Last edited by Giurza; October 01, 2011 at 04:01 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Giurza View Post
    EDIT:
    On the side note, my Aichmetai don't skirmish... is it intended or is it the infamous RTW engine limitation yet again?
    EB team didn't give the skirmish ability. Don't worry, this isn't the only missed skirmisher. Cappadocians also weren't given skirmish. Just edit the EDU and it's fixed!
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by mamik_yev_konak View Post
    EB team didn't give the skirmish ability. Don't worry, this isn't the only missed skirmisher. Cappadocians also weren't given skirmish. Just edit the EDU and it's fixed!
    I thought about editing EDU, but maybe you know why they did not give them skirmish ability? is there maybe some historical/tactical/whatever reason? I use them now as light inf instead of skirmishers, and they perform very well in that (in fact I turn off skirmishing for peltastai too and use them as light inf instead)

  8. #8

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    I don't like skirmish mode, because it creates some just plain odd behavior.
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Giurza View Post
    I thought about editing EDU, but maybe you know why they did not give them skirmish ability? is there maybe some historical/tactical/whatever reason? I use them now as light inf instead of skirmishers, and they perform very well in that (in fact I turn off skirmishing for peltastai too and use them as light inf instead)
    You can call it intended, I call it a mistake. Fact of the matter is that you can either skirmish manually or have them get the ability that was programmed just for that role. Also, fact is that EB team did a very good job of writing down historical synopses of these units. You yourself mentioned reading these texts written in the description of how such a unit was a famous skirmishing unit. Well, you can keep playing with the missed skirmish ability, or you can remedy the situation. I think it's simple enough. Heck, we've fixed this ourselves online! At the end of the day, the skirmish ability does not affect the rest of their stats, as far as I am aware, and so for all practical purposes (almost all), you may continue playing with the lack of the ability.
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    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by mamik_yev_konak View Post
    You can call it intended, I call it a mistake.
    Uh, what? He isn't calling it intended, he's asking if you know why it wasn't implemented, and specifically *if* the lack of skirmish mode is intended for a historical reason.
    I beat back their first attack with ease. Properly employed, E's can be very deadly, deadlier even than P's and Z's, though they're not as lethal as Paula Abdul or Right Said Fred.
    ~ Miaowara Tomokato, Samurai Cat Goes to the Movies

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    I'll get around to it sometime today - I've never actually used Marian/Imperial Romans, so I don't know. Testudo in general isn't worth much, as it's usually more effective to be attacking.

    RE: Non-Skirmishing Leucanians: No, it's not a limitation. The Description calls them skirmishers, but the in-game stats make them regual Infantry like Hastati Samnitici.
    I beat back their first attack with ease. Properly employed, E's can be very deadly, deadlier even than P's and Z's, though they're not as lethal as Paula Abdul or Right Said Fred.
    ~ Miaowara Tomokato, Samurai Cat Goes to the Movies

  12. #12
    Boriak's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    I've used Testudo while I was playing mods other than EB. I used it if I was being attacked by missiles, waiting for the enemy to come to me. Other than that, it looks great.

  13. #13
    DarthLazy's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Loose formation works wonders you know without your men getting pointy stuff up their arse.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by |Sith|4|DarthLazy View Post
    Loose formation works wonders you know without your men getting pointy stuff up their arse.
    Yeah, I know. and I used it all the time. it was that I always thought that testudo was good only for protection against missiles, but there it was withstanding elephant charge head on and surviving with few casualties. since I've been playing RTW and EB for years now, I never thought that I might be surprised. and now I wonder if anyone might be crazy enough to check it out too...

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    Rhomphaiaphoros's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Giurza View Post
    I wonder if anyone might be crazy enough to check it out too...
    I found this Testudo vs Elephant setting interesting, so I decided to test it out. In my test, the result was somewhere in the middle ground between what you said and what I had imagined it to be before you brought it up.

    So, I can confirm that the Testudo did hold surprisingly well against the elephant charge, better than ordinary formations generally do. As we all know, elephants can cut through an ordinary formation like a hot knife through butter, but my legionaries, being in the Testudo formation, were able to hold their ground relatively well. There was no large-scale Flying Legionaries Show(TM), at least not in the extent there usually is, and my legionaries were even able to absorb the force of the elephant charge and prevent the creatures from getting through to the other infantry unit I had placed behind the Testudo.

    On the other hand, the elephant charge still cost me around 40 men instantly, and after the Testudo (automatically) dissolved and the legionaries began to fight, I quickly lost doubly that amount (before I was able to send in supporting troops). So that's why I said that my results were in the middle ground, because this is still some way from how you described the outcome. I am not, of course, implying that you'd have lied; I mainly blame myself for taking your words too literally, especially considering that in RTW the results can vary quite a lot between 2 battles. Moreover, your situation took place in a real battle, with many different factors at work, whereas mine was just a Custom Battle test on the Grassy Flatland.

    To sum up, the Testudo seems to be able to hold rather well against elephant charges, but I still can't really say whether this is a good tactic in general, considering the other drawbacks of the Testudo formation. If someone is willing to do more extensive testing on this, I'd also be happy to hear about the results .

    - Rhomphaiaphoros


  16. #16

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Great post Rhomphaiaphoros! +rep for you for picking up the glove on this one!

  17. #17
    DarthLazy's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Interesting, does the testudo increase Legionaries mass so that they resist better? Kinda like phalanxes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Katpatuka Zanteush (Cappadoccian Hillmen)
    "Fierce warriors from the Anatolian highlands, these tribesmen make courageous and skilled skirmishers and their axes can do terrible damage under the right conditions."

    Aichmetai Leukanoi (Lucanian Light Infantry)
    "Aichmetai Leukanoi are javelin-equipped skirmishers. They run forward to pepper an enemy with javelins, and then withdraw before a counter-attack can be organised."


    Source: EB developers

    EDIT: The skirmish ability, whether enabled or disabled, does not make these units any more or less historically accurate, even in their usage. That game mechanic is, in my opinion, one that you should be able to make the call for. One reason why you may want an historical skirmisher to have the ability is to that you don't have to micro it as much (not a big factor offline, but online, of course).
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by mamik_yev_konak View Post
    Aichmetai Leukanoi (Lucanian Light Infantry)
    "Aichmetai Leukanoi are javelin-equipped skirmishers. They run forward to pepper an enemy with javelins, and then withdraw before a counter-attack can be organised."


    Source: EB developers

    EDIT: The skirmish ability, whether enabled or disabled, does not make these units any more or less historically accurate, even in their usage. That game mechanic is, in my opinion, one that you should be able to make the call for. One reason why you may want an historical skirmisher to have the ability is to that you don't have to micro it as much (not a big factor offline, but online, of course).
    Don't forget that the Lucanians have Knives for their melee attack, not a Spear, so that has to get changed, too.
    I beat back their first attack with ease. Properly employed, E's can be very deadly, deadlier even than P's and Z's, though they're not as lethal as Paula Abdul or Right Said Fred.
    ~ Miaowara Tomokato, Samurai Cat Goes to the Movies

  20. #20
    Rhomphaiaphoros's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Testudo vs elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy Judge View Post
    Don't forget that the Lucanians have Knives for their melee attack, not a Spear, so that has to get changed, too.
    Yeah, and they also shouldn't have any armour, helmets, or even shields!

    Quote Originally Posted by mamik_yev_konak View Post
    Katpatuka Zanteush (Cappadoccian Hillmen)
    "Fierce warriors from the Anatolian highlands, these tribesmen make courageous and skilled skirmishers and their axes can do terrible damage under the right conditions."

    Aichmetai Leukanoi (Lucanian Light Infantry)
    "Aichmetai Leukanoi are javelin-equipped skirmishers. They run forward to pepper an enemy with javelins, and then withdraw before a counter-attack can be organised."

    Source: EB developers
    I think that Entropy Judge made a better point than you did, no offence. There are some inconsistencies between some units and their descriptions in EB, so I myself wouldn't blindly trust in those alone. And besides these inconsistencies, there are actually quite many units in EB who are also described as skirmishers (or at least mentioned having used skirmishing tactics), and yet I believe that no-one would actually support the idea of giving them the skirmishing ability. (If you want a more thorough explanation of what I mean, you should see the spoiler part below.)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Let's take Gaeroas and Thureophoroi as examples: going by the descriptions, the former are "impromptu skirmishers" and the latter in turn "melee-skirmishers". Sure, there are the words "impromptu" and "melee-" in those, but they are still skirmishers, and unless I misunderstood your justification for the skirmishing ability, the word "skirmisher" should somehow be more important when defining a unit's abilities. In case you aren't following, I'd like to point out that our previous examples were Lucanian Light Infantry and Cappadocian Hillmen; neither of them is named "skirmishers" or "javelinmen", so why should the word "skirmisher" (from the description) supersede the terms "Light Infantry" and "Hillmen" (from the actual unit names)?

    In case my reasoning isn't convincing yet, let's take this a level deeper. Thorakitai are heavier versions of the "melee-skirmisher" Thureophoroi; should Thorakitai be given the ability to skirmish? Samnite Heavy Infantry are said to use different tactics than Roman Infantry, and also to carry more javelins; are Samnite Heavy Infantry skirmishers? Okay, I agree that these are going quite far from the centre point of the discussion, but technically the justification used for Aichmetai/Zanteush could be used for Thorakitai/Samnitici as well.

    But the word "skirmisher" and its level of importance aside. I also have a theory, or shall I say, an assumption. I personally believe that there may have been plans to have more South-Italian unit types in EB originally, possibly another unit of Lucanian origin (of course there are the Bruttians, but I'm not talking about those now). If this was the case, one of the two units could have been the (very) light knife-skirmishers described in the unit text of the current Lucanians, and the other would have been something heavier (possibly spearmen, perhaps something like the Samnites). But then the team had to drop the other Lucanian unit for some reason: there was no unit model space/practical purpose/[insert reason here] for both light skirmishers and medium spearmen, but because both javelins and spears seem to have been viewed as important weapons for the Lucanians, the team decided to combine the two units into the Aichmetai we are talking about now.

    I'd like to emphasize that what I said above is just a theory of mine. As I'm not a member of the EB team, I have no actual knowledge about what the team had originally intended (all the dropped ideas and so on). Moreover, I don't know much about historical Lucanians or their armaments and battle tactics. But still, this theory would explain the differences between the "physical" appearance of the in-game unit and its text description. I mean, let's face it: the description of the Lucanians really seems to be written for an entirely different type of unit than what the Lucanians themselves are in their current state.

    But wait, what on earth does that wall of text above have to do with the skirmishing ability of the Lucanians? Well, it brings me back to my original points. The first being that if there was supposed to be a "line-holder" Lucanian unit that was then squeezed to be only a part of the current unit, the skirmishing ability would just ruin their line-holding capabilities (the running away behaviour I mentioned in my previous post). And the second point is the one I introduced in this post. The unit is called Lucanian Light Infantry, not Lucanian Skirmishers/Javelinmen. Which gives me, at least, the impression of a generic fighting unit and not a skirmisher (contrary to Akontistai for example, which are actually called Hellenic Skirmishers).


    That game mechanic is, in my opinion, one that you should be able to make the call for. One reason why you may want an historical skirmisher to have the ability is to that you don't have to micro it as much (not a big factor offline, but online, of course).
    This is the clearly superior one of your points, something that I admit having not thought about myself. But I'd like to point out that this skirmishing ability and its default stance could almost certainly not be modified in a way that would allow AI armies to simultaneously have, say, Akontistai that have it "on", and Aichmetai that have it "off". It's either the one or the other for all their units, and as the automatic off-stance for Akontistai would be silly (as would the opposite be for the Lucanians IMO), getting around the problem by the Lucanians not having the ability at all is a reasonable solution to my mind.

    Needless to say, one doesn't need to worry about the AI in multiplayer, so I can understand your view of adding the skirmishing ability for the Lucanians for better online gameplay's sake. But, since you already use your own modified EDU in online battles, you can add that ability to multiplayer only. What I'm trying to say is, I still object to changing it for singleplayer, for the reasons stated in this (overly long) post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giurza View Post
    Rhomphaiaphoros I just did quick test, and it seems the difference between your case and mine was that my testudo was with guard mode ON. they stayed in testudo even after combat contact... try it, it works.
    All right, no wonder then that I had the feeling of there being something fishy in the results. Thanks for clearing this up; I'll try it when I have the time, and report the results here if they are something worth noting .

    - Rhomphaiaphoros
    Last edited by Rhomphaiaphoros; October 06, 2011 at 12:56 PM.


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