Guard Mode on Phalanxes

[Vindictus]

I was wondering, since they never came to my mind until recently. What is more effect for Phalanxes? I've been doing a lot of research. Guard mode basically makes units expend the least amount of energy, die less, and holds their ground, and keep their formation.

I can understand why that is for Phalanxes. You need to keep formation.

I tried it out on a battle map. Militia Hoplites (OFF Guard) v Militia Hoplites (On Guard). The off guard died very quickly. I read that going OFF Guard makes your phalanx push forward more and dish out more damage, but I just got pummeled. My phalanx broke quickly and pulled out their little swords.


I tried flanking with them. Weirdly enough, they face a random direction and get pummeled.. this is weird. I played great with Guard ON all the time. Guard Off seems too weird. Can someone explain?

[dacder]

much greater killing power at the expense of some stability of the phalanx. (The come out of it slightly easier)

[SavageFeat]

Haha quoting your self sooo cool. Use guard mode of when using elite short speared hoplites vs successor phalangites. Like armored hoplites v royal pikes royal pikes will win but armored hoplites (guard mode off) v royal pikes, armored hoplites will win

[MortenJessen]

Guard mode have the units, not just hoplites and phalangists, hold the line much better, as they do not break formation to follow enemies. Guard mode is best used on hoplites or phalangists who moves towards an enemy, as when attacking. When a phalanx formation marches towards a point behind the enemy line, you do so with guard mode on. When contact is made, you turn off guardmode (or, if you have superior numbers of infantry, eg. enough to engage the entire enemy line, keep them in guard mode and have them push the enemy back while flanking with cavalry) and have them fight it out. Guardmode on hoplite units are somewhat capable of reducing the effect of an enemy attack too, as it allows the unit to work like a phalanx should work: absorbing the power of the attack by sheer numbers and the power of a massed, solid formation.
And yes, a hoplite vs. phalangist fight is won by numbers and micromanagement, not by turning off guard mode. It is true that the hoplites spears are shorter, but the hoplites should, guardmode or not, be able to draw the swords and carry the fight into the enemy formation on their own. It is called "Alt Attack".

[dacder]

Guard mode have the units, not just hoplites and phalangists, hold the line much better, as they do not break formation to follow enemies. Guard mode is best used on hoplites or phalangists who moves towards an enemy, as when attacking. When a phalanx formation marches towards a point behind the enemy line, you do so with guard mode on. When contact is made, you turn off guardmode (or, if you have superior numbers of infantry, eg. enough to engage the entire enemy line, keep them in guard mode and have them push the enemy back while flanking with cavalry) and have them fight it out. Guardmode on hoplite units are somewhat capable of reducing the effect of an enemy attack too, as it allows the unit to work like a phalanx should work: absorbing the power of the attack by sheer numbers and the power of a massed, solid formation.
And yes, a hoplite vs. phalangist fight is won by numbers and micromanagement, not by turning off guard mode. It is true that the hoplites spears are shorter, but the hoplites should, guardmode or not, be able to draw the swords and carry the fight into the enemy formation on their own. It is called "Alt Attack".

LOLWHUT?
Yes a guard mode phalanx loses to a non-guard phalanx.
Why on earth would you alt-attack with phalanxes except for the re-attack trick?
The fight is also won by quality.....lol.
Guard mode on for hoplites when faacing pikes is a death sentence...

[dude21862004]

I wonder: Are you guys saying that if you turn guard mode off the phalanx units are going to close with the enemy and use their short swords rather than using their spears once your forces lock? But even so, you'd be more likely to lose more men that way under most, if not all, circumstances.

[Vindictus]

Wow, interesting. I did a custom game test. One militia hoplite OFF guard, vs One militia hoplite ON guard. The off guard lost.

[Magic_8_Ball]

Wow, interesting. I did a custom game test. One militia hoplite OFF guard, vs One militia hoplite ON guard. The off guard lost.

If you tested it vs the AI, which one of you was attacking and which was defending?

It should be noted that defending phalanxes will have an advantage vs attacking phalanxes.

[Vindictus]

Okay. Well now I was trying out on campaign map. I had a bunch of Phalanx Pikemen, sent them against huge groups of Princepes. It was 3 Phalanx vs 3 Principes. Tight spot. So Phalanxes should have one. All was going good. Then I switched OFF guard mode, and my pikemen walked toward the Principes, their pikes disappearing. All of a sudden, once they closed the gap, they pulled out their pikes and lowered them, and repeated the process. A lot more casualties. I'd rather stay in guard mode and hold them off.

[dacder]

Okay. Well now I was trying out on campaign map. I had a bunch of Phalanx Pikemen, sent them against huge groups of Princepes. It was 3 Phalanx vs 3 Principes. Tight spot. So Phalanxes should have one. All was going good. Then I switched OFF guard mode, and my pikemen walked toward the Principes, their pikes disappearing. All of a sudden, once they closed the gap, they pulled out their pikes and lowered them, and repeated the process. A lot more casualties. I'd rather stay in guard mode and hold them off.

..........how in the world did you manage that.......
and plus we mean PHALANX ON PHALANX!!!
and you obvioulsy are just......wow.
Did you click past them or something?where was your micro at this time?WHY DID YOU EVEN LET THAT HAPPEN?????

[Vindictus]

..........how in the world did you manage that.......
and plus we mean PHALANX ON PHALANX!!!
and you obvioulsy are just......wow.
Did you click past them or something?where was your micro at this time?WHY DID YOU EVEN LET THAT HAPPEN?????

I feel completely stupid when you talk like that ... and, I just clicked toward the other army on even footing. It was 1v1, 160 v 160

[SavageFeat]

Try armored hoplites vs royal pikemen guard on and off for the armored hoplites

[MortenJessen]

Yes a guard mode phalanx loses to a non-guard phalanx.

That depends on quite a lot. On basics, no that is not true, but yes, there are situations where it is.

and plus we mean PHALANX ON PHALANX!!!

You did, OP also asked in general......

I feel completely stupid when you talk like that ...

Dont take dacder too much to heart, he is just a misunderstood troll who enjoys his own incomprehencive style. Remember that he most likely did not read the OP's (yours) post in the first place, as you asked for an explanation to what had happened. Did he ever try that? NO. He just tossed a random quote that said something with out explaining.
So, when in doubt, ignore him, as he most likely just trolls people.

[dacder]

That depends on quite a lot. On basics, no that is not true, but yes, there are situations where it is.


You did, OP also asked in general......


Dont take dacder too much to heart, he is just a misunderstood troll who enjoys his own incomprehencive style. Remember that he most likely did not read the OP's (yours) post in the first place, as you asked for an explanation to what had happened. Did he ever try that? NO. He just tossed a random quote that said something with out explaining.
So, when in doubt, ignore him, as he most likely just trolls people.

1.Yes it is true....obviously there are other factors but between two equaly non-braindead players non-guard mode will win.
2.Yes but phalanx on phalanx is the best way to determine it.
3.Actually I think your a troll.....I try to help people on here and you come and call me a troll?I have my own ways of helping people and because its not ideal to you dosen't mean its trolling.
Look at |HoS|Slayer and you will see a troll, a person who posts a relevant and helpful answer isnt trolling FYI.

[Magic_8_Ball]

Dont take dacder too much to heart, he is just a misunderstood troll who enjoys his own incomprehencive style. Remember that he most likely did not read the OP's (yours) post in the first place, as you asked for an explanation to what had happened. Did he ever try that? NO. He just tossed a random quote that said something with out explaining.
So, when in doubt, ignore him, as he most likely just trolls people.

Contrary to popular belief, I can vouch that Dacder is neither a troll, nor is his play style incomprehensible.

[Chris Death]

Contrary to popular belief, I can vouch that Dacder is neither a troll, nor is his play style incomprehensible.

Nah as i already tried to explain - the difference between sp and mp kicks in and when it's about
singleplayer ppl tend to count on their casualties only - the "whole thing" is getting lost in sp
because it's all about those 5000/0 kd ratios.

Ya know "father bull and sun bull were standing on a hill...."

We both know (actually you now even better than me) that in mp this all is not relevant but who wins at the end so we consider a few losses due to off guard mode as acceptable but we WIN THE BATTLE.

It's not easy to convince singleplayer players (or are they "single players" dunno) about true facts since
they do not like to loose a single man during a battle (which in multiplayer terms is just not possible).
Once they go online they realize - "hey that's awesome - i thought i knew all but i do know nothing"

@everybody else

I can confirm - dacder is not trying to troll in threads like this - when dacder is trolling he does
it that everyone would see "obious troll is obvious"

When we online players are responding in threads like this and you feel trolled because due to your
singleplayer experiences it makes absolutely no sense then don't get us wrong - it's already ok that
we got you guys wrong asking for help against the "ai" instead of real human beings who do know
how to propperly attack etc.

~S~ CD

[romanlegion]

An interesting thread, I didnt realize that phalanx formations can be more useful in guard mode, I will try it out the next time I play with a faction that has phalanx units.

[dacder]

An interesting thread, I didnt realize that phalanx formations can be more useful in guard mode, I will try it out the next time I play with a faction that has phalanx units.

But except against chariots and cavalry there not better in guard!

[Chris Death]

As usual there's that big controversy of singleplayer and multiplayer.

The first question which is important would be:

What do you want to achieve?

Now in singleplayer it is; winning the battle - taking as less casualties as possible (best result = 0) - getting a "heroic victory" + a "famous battle site"
marker (two crossed swords) and lots of experience chevrons + a few command stars for the general.

In multiplayer it's all about: winning the battle - everything else from above is not important (heroic is nice but not important aswell) - the last thing
you are looking for in a multiplayer game is "how manny units you got left after winning the battle" - it's again something nice but additional.

The next question would be: how can you achieve this?

Well in singleplayer easy; all you need is to exploit the ai and you're done.

Let's say: a few phalanxes deployed in a long line with guard mode on so they
will stay in that line and any ai unit that is dumb enough to try to get through
this line will kill itself by saying hello to the front end of the pikes.

It doesn't really matter wether the ai engages the whole line or only the
center (thus having left and right a few phalanx units holding a barbequeue),
you will then move your flanking force around and hammer them into their backs
and suddenly nearly all of them is having white blinking flags and you will send
your general to gain a few experience chevrons.

In multiplayer it's a little bit more tricky because nobody will do you that favour
as the ai does. To be honest - some will do but those are not the oponents a
serious online player is looking for (for these purposes we got the singleplayer option).

In an online game one of the last things you want is: having units standing around
doing nothing but holding their line while being engaged.


Now let's get to off/on guard (sorry for taking so long but i think the previous part was
important to show that apples and bananas aren't equal):


Guard mode on: makes a unit hold it's formation and position - and makes a unit defend against
a direct attack.

This means that each soldier which is getting individually attacked will react WITHOUT LEAVING
IT'S PLACE IN THE FORMATION. This is only useful if the unit is getting attacked and this is
happening from the front only.

Also the unit will not follow an enemy unit after having engaged it even if the first engagement
happened due to an attack order by the unit in guard mode.


Guard mode off: will make a whole unit engage even without an attack order (by clicking a move
order behind the enemy unit). The whole unit will start fighting against the enemy unit (not only
those which are getting directly attacked).

Also the unit will follow an enemy unit when an attack order has been given and not stay in the formation.

Individual soldiers are going for the flanks of the engaged unit if there's no space to engage on it's front.


Now when you move your cavalry around and send them into the backs of the enemy unit it will have a way
more devastating effect when your phalanx is off guard rather than on guard since more than the half of
them are busy fighting your phalanx unit.

If your on guard phalanx is getting flanked by an enemy unit, they will only react onto direct attacks aswell.
This means: phalanx guy gets hit in his back - this one guy will turn around and try to fight back (obviously not
because he's already dead) - noone else of his neighbours will care until he gets hit aswell.

In the off guard phalanx his neighbours would react (that doesn't mean that they will survive the charge in the
back but at least they are reacting better).


OK, here we come to the reverse example;

Phalanx is engaged with infantry on the front and an enemy cavalry unit
is going for the rear charge.

You have to know that in multiplayer things like this do happen (unlike in singleplayer)
but then there is that counter by turning around the spears into the cav unit.

Altough the player has to control this but here off guard mode again comes in handy.

In off guard mode those guys who are fighting the enemy infantry on the front will still
fight them while the others will turn around to face the cav while in guard mode one
the whole unit will ignore the infantry on the front (which is now it's back) and face the
cav unit not caring about meanwhile getting killed from the infantry.

If the cav unit now gets away again the off guard unit will automatically again fight the
infantry unit on it's front while the on guard unit would show them only their backs.

To underline this behaviour another example:

A cavalry unit passing by an enemy unit - suddenly one guy of the cav unit gets touched
by the enemy unit and the cav unit engages even tho you gave them a move order
to somewhere else.

That's guard mode off - in guard mode one they would not care about that one guy being
touched and just move on to where they were being told.


OK - that was a lot of typing in a box where i could only see 5 lines always and i hope
i didn't mix it up somewhere or lost track of myself.

To end this up;

Singleplayer: do it the on guard mode to get results like 5/6000 kills to 100 deaths

Multiplayer: forget about singleplayer and especially about it's k/d ratio - this is not
going to happen - never.

~S~ CD

[Vindictus]

I have multiplayer experience as well.. what I wanted to know was the difference when using a Phalanx unit. Because I heard they fight more effectively while OFF phalanx unit. But I tend to see a trend where ON guard Phalanx tends to lose much less units and holds units back more efficiently, where as off guard, the unit tends to lose formation and pull out their swords.