What would your defending force look like?

[Navajo Joe]

Guys,

I am playing a Crusader States Campaign, it is the year 1217ad, and you know who will be arriving on the scene shortly!! The furthest east I have taken is a Ahvaz, Alamut & Kermanshah. Now to take the Mongols on with a field battle is a sure fire way to get crushed, so my strategy is to defend my settlements and then bring up reserves to push them back.

Now what type of units would you use to defend a Fortress, if you have a knowledge of CS roster, then be unit specific, but if not generic is fine. By the way these settlements will not have access to Hospitaller or Templar units from the respective order houses.

Likewise do the same for a city.

By the way reps to those with a good explanation why.

regards
NJ

[isa0005]

archers, plenty of long distance archers, with some heavy infantry and light cav support and if you can chuck in some heavy cav.

The heavy infantry are used to hold the walls and the gate, the archers are used to wear them down as they approach destroyin any rams or siege towers, the light cav are used to harry them as they come and if you can spare some room for the heavy cav, they can ride them down if they run, or if they enter the fortress you can use them to hold them off whilst you work some other strategy.

Typically i keep my heavy infantry on the wall if they gate is broken down, gettin my archers to retreat back to the fortress center, if they enemy gets further enough in i engage them with my heavy cav whilst my heavy infantry come round and take them in the rear.

This is a very basic set up not too much detail lol

[diez]

put lots of xbows and archers in the walls and shoot their light cavalry...if u have any unit that can deploy stakes,deploy them at the passage they will go to pass from e.g. gates or broken walls part(if u know where they attack) etc.
also put there spearmen to cause some casualties to their cavalry and two handed infantry behind them.once the line is broken charge,retreat rechage ur heavy cav...retreat as many infantry as u can to city center.as they approach it leave outside ur cavalry(except ur general cause maybe will be killed)and charge recharge as much as u can

[szelbisz]

my tactics for the mongols in cities/bridges:
heavy infantry to hold the line/gates/walls/bridge whatever (heavy spearmen mostly), javelinmen (you probably have access to the turkish and kurdish ones) for dealing with their heavy cav and most importantly their general (save their ammo and wait until the general is in range and fie all of them at his unit) and thus making his units rout, archers (you also have access to turkish archers) to soften their cav before they reach your units, 2 units of light cav to capture the routers, a generals bodygourd unit is probably welcome

[vtec.dominion]

Agreed with szelbisz. I'd use templar spearmen/heavy templar spearmen (if available) as a line infantry and a lot of AOR units, definiately use a lot of javelinmens, they are truly devastating if used properly. Lots of AOR archers as well. I'd have some AP units then (Mongols are well armoured and their heavy infantry use maces), so if you have access to eddesian guard and templar squires, recruit them. Both are great on walls as well.
Simply use your ordinary cheaper troops as a shield to pin the enemy and then charge/flank with AP units.

Alamut is great fortress (well developed) to bleed at least few stacks. Use a lot of AOR units there (high replenish ratio). Also, use the mountain path to Ahvaz and block it.
Once your defending forces are exhausted and in need of retrainig you may want to use your diplomat and get ceasefire for a few turns (depending on AI though).
Just gift them some money until your relations improve and they shall accept your offer then.

[Liandro]

All infantry of some type, good though, not garbage like the light men at arms, less archers, hide far in behind the walls, where superior Mongol range is either useless or beyond it entirely, when they climb up and over, meet them, beat them, send em back, their archers will have to climb the walls to fight, take em out too. When the horsies come running in, get your spearmen ready, or just about everyone really, cause this is it. I don't sit on the walls and get shot in the face waiting for them to get prepared, I let them have to come to me.
I absolutely disrespect the mongols, I execute their prisoners, I can't have them coming back in a short while, they're just too good, when I take a town, I bring at least 3 stacks and usually auto-resolve, leaving a lot of good troops for me and usually a torn up stack for them. Then I rape their horses and ride off on their women into the sunset...

[Lord Minotaur]

Chuck norris at the gate, no one will survive. , just joking, stakes at the gate maybe?

[philipjd]

Fortresses with more than 1 wall:-
Cavalry cannot climb walls - split your archers over the two walls so that they can cover the ground between them. Heavy infantry at both sets of gates. Expendable infantry garrissoning the outer wall two section way from the gates (back them up against the towere furthest from the gate.
Make sure that you retreat your archer units from the first wall in time to get back to the second - or cover them with HI on the outer walls.
Then it's a battle of attrition until you feel confident enough to come down off the walls and start to fight them face to face.

The AI is not too bright in bringing siege equipment against inner walls (although better than Vanilla) and mongol infantry is their weakest arm.

This, obviously, is only for settlements with more than 1 set of walls.

[Galain_Ironhide]

The AI is not too bright in bringing siege equipment against inner walls (although better than Vanilla) and mongol infantry is their weakest arm.

Has this improved? I've been away for quite a while, I would be very impressed if some advancement had been made here.

House rules would prevent me from the ol' stakes at the gate trick. My usual full stack make up of any castle / city defense is at least 4-6 of the best archer units on offer on the walls, 4 maybe 5 units of heavy spears to hold them at the gates, 4 units of heavy inf on the walls, plus whatever light to medium inf to fill the spots at the walls and at the gate, maybe 2 or so units of HA's to pester the enemy outside the gates.
I would only keep maybe 1 unit of heavy or medium cav on hand to help mop up or use in dire need and 1 General / Family member.

probably fairly stock standard line up though.

[meese]

Has this improved? I've been away for quite a while, I would be very impressed if some advancement had been made here.

In my games, they tend to breach the outer walls then form up at the next set of walls (all the while being shot at). One unit will then wander back out, collect a ram and walk back in. If you have units on these walls, a couple of others will go collect the ladders. They repeat this until the inner walls and by this time, maybe 1/2 to 2/3rds of the time will have passed and if you have ballista towers, casualties will have gone to at least 15%. So er...nah, they're still pretty terrible.

[meese]

Tl;dr
Foot knights of jerusalem on the walls, templar sergeants backed by remainder foot knights/squires/light men at arms/marinae at the gates. From memory, you likely won't have the heavy spearmen, zweihanders or edessan guards but I may be wrong. Make sure you have a couple of missile troops and even the mounted knights of jerusalem are useful.

Long version:

Well, I'm going to assume you don't have unlimited cash.

For castles, I'd definitely use foot knights of jerusalem on the walls because spears/two-handed weapons have animations which are too slow (in my experience). Plus the spears/pole axes (or clubs) will be more useful against cavalry through the gates.

Now, obviously, if you swing that way, you could put stakes at the gates and make things infinitely easier. If not, or even if you do, I'd put spears in a bit of a semi circle at the gates to give room for javelins/arrows. Depending on the shape of the walls, you might even be able to put archers on the walls if they can shoot down onto your side of the gates. The goal is to funnel them into the gates and hold them in a circle, taking them out using missiles and the natural gate defences. The ground defences should consist of spears to hold the circle (best spears you can afford) and probably the Marinae to kill the horses. I actually got about 6 units of marinae with gold chevrons...

For city defences; these are a lot tougher unfortunately. Chances are you won't have access to edessan guards so er...I think when I did it I just got troops from my castles. The mongols were actually quite worn out by the time they got to me so they didn't bother me much. Usually, what I do in cities is, if my troops are militias (i.e. will rout), I defend the city centre. I do this by creating a kind of tunnel with melee troops with crossbows at the end. I make sure no enemy units make it to the crossbows so you effectively have crossbows firing at the enemy flank.


Last thing: I pulled a couple of canons off from jerusalem to defend baghdad. They're really handy.

[Black_ice_Spain]

stakes on gates = bug -_-. AI will eat them.

[ShadowKiller2000]

Well with a Fortress defense against even the Mongols is possible. Here would be my army composition and tactical approach to the seige.

1) I would use the best units possible for the 1st attack/seige. After winning the battle you can retreat your depleted elite troops to other settlements to retrain (the ones that can't be retrained the turn after the battle). So I would only use local troops for the second battle on until you better troops can replace them.

So the problem with the Mongols (ok one of them) is that their long range archers will be better than yours, at least until you can start recruiting longbows, not to mention them having a TON of horse archers. You will need an army that can take arrrows and still keep coming.

Army composition:

1 General, maybe not a family member but make sure he is good enough to rally troops when moral drops.

2 units of your best Heavy cavalry......maybe St. Lazarus knights so you can re-train them

1 unit light cavalry, to chase routers

1 unit of crossbows

7 units of your best spears: Templar Heavy Spearmen, and Templar spearmen to fill the ranks. If you have to use a few standard spearmen as well. Needless to say try to have all your units armor maxed.

8 units of heavy infantry: Knights of Jerusalem, Zweihanders, Dismounted St. Lazarus Knights, and templar squires as well.

I went light on missle units, but you will have tower missels firing all battle long, so I would rather have more men able to do serious knife work than shoot from walls (which requires more micro-management)

For placement I would suggest the following: It does depend if you are facing 1 or multiple stacks but I will assume multiple attacking stacks.

Cavalry units by the outer walls where the attackers will try to breach the gates. This way you get defensive fire as the enemy army approaches without losing men on the walls to seige units and archer fire. In most of the battles I have fought the Mongols blow through the wall anyway, so I would rather preserve my boys for later in the fight.

Have all the rest of your units take positions within the second set of defenses.

Once the army approaches pull your cavalry back to the center of the castle.

Now you do give up the outer walls here, but the Mongols will take forever to bring a ram into the interior and break through. This gives your amry time to rest, while the Mongols run themselves into stamina troubles. A tired Mongol is a lot easier for your mele units to kill.

When they attack keep your spear units and 2 handers on the ground behind the gate. Dismounted Knights of Jerusalem and Templar Squires can hold the walls.

If the AI is not attacking walk a unit close to the gate so it opens and lets the Mongols in. Then it is a simple game of holding them off until you win.

Vs. the Mongols I find holding the inner levels much better in the long run. The AI can not attack multiple gates (like it can on the outer walls) and you are in no danger of being flanked. This comes into effect more so with multiple stacks attacking, but not having to run your units back to the next level of defense is key. Plus it saves your units from tiring (especially all those Heavy Infantry in armor).

Battles vs. the Mongols are never easy but the Crusader States do have plenty of heavy infantry which are amazing in seige battles.

[Navajo Joe]

Guys,

Apologies it as taken me so long to reply.

Thanks for all the constructive helpful posts, I am still waiting for them to attack me, they appear to be rather hesitant at present.

Special thank you to Shadowkiller2000, absolutely awesome post, also Meese's was very good as well, so reps to you two.

Interestingly, nobody mentioned a Mangonel, any reasons or just forgotten?

NJ

[David93]

Guys,

Apologies it as taken me so long to reply.

Thanks for all the constructive helpful posts, I am still waiting for them to attack me, they appear to be rather hesitant at present.

Special thank you to Shadowkiller2000, absolutely awesome post, also Meese's was very good as well, so reps to you two.

Interestingly, nobody mentioned a Mangonel, any reasons or just forgotten?

NJ

i would use shadowkillers suggestion plus one-two missile units and place them to the sides of the units defending the gate, not on the walls, so they can shoot into the centre of the units trapped there.
on mangonels, imo they couldnt hit the broad side of a barn, slow your armies down to much and kill more of my men than the enimies.
who needs enimies when you have mangonels

[meese]

Guys,

Apologies it as taken me so long to reply.

Thanks for all the constructive helpful posts, I am still waiting for them to attack me, they appear to be rather hesitant at present.

Special thank you to Shadowkiller2000, absolutely awesome post, also Meese's was very good as well, so reps to you two.

Interestingly, nobody mentioned a Mangonel, any reasons or just forgotten?

NJ

I use mangonels every now and then. They work really well if you get a lot of enemies bunched together (which is what you want anyway). My annoyance with them is that they lag my computer ( ) so I did overlook it a bit in my post. I also find they're sometimes..unresponsive. But my god when they work, they send the enemy running.

[Homeros]

You need plenty of spear militia (6 or so), two mangonels and perhaps one or two units of (fast) cavalry to chase routers. Deploy your troops in the city square (forget gates, Mongols usually have siege engines to smash walls). Use two or three unit deep "V" formation to hold the line (Mongol heavy cavalry can wade through your lines easily, make sure they don't break through because then you're lost).

With your spear militia holding the line and most Mongol units (including their HA) engaged, lop Mangonel barrels just over your own line. It will be carnage. Those two Mangonels will kill more than thousand men easily (and they are bad for morale too). Use your cavalry to chase routers if you like (not needed). Don't waste Mangonel ammo on long range attacks. Only target units who are close.

It's a cheap tactic, but highly effective (and not as cheap as stakes-at-the-gate

Personally, I don't fight siege battles because of AI weakness. It's a lot more fun to fight the Mongols in the field anyways.

[Ultra123]

fighting mongols in the field just pisses me off tbh. the only way to counter them in feild is to also deploy horse archers, or have a heavy contingent of archers in your own lines, either way, its gay.

[David93]

or use the european heavy cavalry

[meese]

or use the european heavy cavalry

Unfortunately the Crusader States don't get heavy heavy cavalry And definitely not when the mongols come. Arrows just shred them.