Unit Free Upkeep

**brymht** · September 21, 2011, 01:26 PM

Hello,

I'm new to this modd,but enjoying it very much. 1 question.

My first campaign is ruinous in terms of upkeep...

From what I can see, the castles and buildings in settlements do not help with free upkeep at all; at least units are no more shaded than outside.

Is this correct? Any better way to tell?

Good news: I'm KoJ, and I've captured Antioch and am in the Positive $!!!

**wudang_clown** · September 21, 2011, 01:59 PM

That's correct, there's no free upkeep in BC, but does not make successful campaign impossible.

**~~knight who says nee~~** · September 21, 2011, 02:42 PM

the epic unit size mod adds free upkeep to forts (4 units - a good motivation to use them) and also to cities - 2 units

**Dago Red** · September 21, 2011, 05:38 PM

RBBR, the well done submod I recommend adds free upkeep in some capacity to the perma forts that were added... although I believe you need a separate/specific download for the effect.

**Harith** · September 22, 2011, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Dago Red

RBBR, the well done submod I recommend adds free upkeep in some capacity to the perma forts that were added... although I believe you need a separate/specific download for the effect.

I think a discount would be better because u still have to pay the soldiers who are ready to die for u otherwise they will rebel. Otherwise, prolly levies and militias only should get free upkeep... sounds good?

**mAIOR** · September 22, 2011, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Harith

I think a discount would be better because u still have to pay the soldiers who are ready to die for u otherwise they will rebel. Otherwise, prolly levies and militias only should get free upkeep... sounds good?

Depends of the troops. Fully professional soldiers, yes. Levied soldiers with free upkeep could represent the cities drafted reserves. These troops should have free upkeep since when not at war, they'd be plowing fields and increasing the general economy.

Cheers...

**wudang_clown** · September 22, 2011, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by mAIOR

Depends of the troops. Fully professional soldiers, yes. Levied soldiers with free upkeep could represent the cities drafted reserves. These troops should have free upkeep since when not at war, they'd be plowing fields and increasing the general economy.

Except that those men wouldn't be troops when not at war. They would be working, so they wouldn't be garrisoned. You'd have to gather them first to be able to dispose of them as a fighting force. Besides, levies drawn away from they jobs would only cause economical losses, as they wouldn't be producing, and still you'd have to feed them.

**mAIOR** · September 22, 2011, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by wudang_clown

Except that those men wouldn't be troops when not at war. They would be working, so they wouldn't be garrisoned. You'd have to gather them first to be able to dispose of them as a fighting force. Besides, levies drawn away from they jobs would only cause economical losses, as they wouldn't be producing, and still you'd have to feed them.

Yes. They wouldn't be troops so when garrisoned they should have no upkeep since they aren't troops. They'd be the cities reserves. Wen out of garrison their upkeep should be even higher than normal troops to represent the loss of manpower in the economy.

Cheers...

**mAIOR** · September 22, 2011, 01:27 PM

In my personal opinion, those men would represent reserves. Sure they are recruited but if you make them costly enough, taking them out of cities would be very expensive. So, when they were garrisoned, it'd mean that the city was protected but the reserves not rallied. So basically you'd have a standing army in each city representing the ability of the city to defend itself if attacked.

Cheers...

**k/t** · September 22, 2011, 01:59 PM

The city has to stand in for the whole province, so they're not really garrisoned. They could be just doing what they normally do. However, they give a public order boost, so they're a sort of police, which you have to pay for. On the other hand, Town Watch buildings also give public order boosts, which buildings don't do on their own. The police come from Town Watches, maybe. So the units you have in the city are the reserves then. So they're not garrisoned and they should have 0 upkeep in the city.

I put a really cheap unit in each city, but maybe someday I'll get around to making militia 0 upkeep. Except in BC which ones are militia is not always clear.

**Dago Red** · September 22, 2011, 03:08 PM

I'm more of a mind with Wudang on the levies. I'd actually prefer to increase upkeep on levies but make the initial cost next to nothing in most cases. The loss to the economy, agricultural labor force, etc should be represented. professionals/standing army represent little to no hidden loss to an economy since they are not taken away from fields, farms and mills. Even a town militia unit whose job it is to garrison, must be clothed and fed. It's too bad M2TW does not have the garrison policing bonus attribute for units. That would be handy.

But this should be looked at case by case, you don't want to apply vanilla-like generalizations across the board to BC. For example Turcoman "warrior-shepherds" as I've heard them called seemed to have been somewhat self sufficient. It might be better to apply a different standard to them as a levy/lower tier troop.

On the other side of the scale Templars, Hospitallars, and other religious Orders supported themselves. Furthermore, they seem to have helped grow the economy just by their presence and building projects. Each faction might have a few units that do not fit into the overall molds.

**wudang_clown** · September 22, 2011, 03:13 PM

Reserves, yes, that is one interpretation of a levy unit presence in a town, but I think it's far-fetched.

Unit cards do not represent a pool of manpower, but an already formed unit. It's not abstract, it's actual and rallied unit. You can move it instantly. After all, you wait x number of turns to get that unit operational - and that's exactly the process of rallying up. You pay, you wait, and then you can move into action. What's the point of explaining it as two processes of unit formation?

Now, you paid for an unit of levies, you dragged them out from their fields, workshops and taverns, they are in the town, armed and dangerous and ready for action, therefore they are garrisoned. When you are at work, you are at work, when you are on duty, you are on duty. That's how it is in Total War - military force + some agents are actually available and represented by UI elements of first grade (let's call it this way) and, most importantly, on the TW battlefield, and the rest, like civilians, economic processes etc., is represented by lesser UI elements and numbers and indicators on different screens/charts.

You take men from a pool represented by numbers - after that they are not in the pool anymore, you have to wait until it replenishes. One could say - they are not on their fields, in their workshops or taverns.

And police? Well, I really don't think so. A band of armed men waiting for an action (so: bored men) in the town - that was probably a source of deepest concern of all dwellers.

At least that's how I see it. I really don't think there is any adequate explanation of free upkeep in BC.

**Ichon** · September 23, 2011, 12:11 AM

What are militias? Men who are already trained and equipped but who work in the fields or shops until called up. It takes less than a day or 2 to recall men nearby to the militia.

Then there are the standing units of knights and their retainers. They already have an allotment of land with men working the fields to support them, they only require pay from their liege lord if forced to stay in the field beyond a certain point. In fact many cultures that had no planting seasons had no end to the owed obligation other than until the campaign was done. So basically they are an already trained and formed force but when at their manors and not called up they cost the state nothing other than absence of tax revenues from the lands given to them the state might otherwise receive- but their service and readiness for war is basically their taxes.

Levies are a bit understandable that it doesn't make sense to have free upkeep but there are some types of that does make sense.

At least in the hard feudal sense. From what I've read of eastern factions portrayed in BC many operated in a similar fashion with some men allotted lands to prepare for war when called.

**Harith** · September 23, 2011, 04:17 AM

as far as I know, Umar bin Al Khattab created the first Muslim Trooper Salary because many troops found it hard to answer the call of battle when they have no one to tend their crops or sub in their business. So I think that recruiting levies or militias should decrease city income, city population and should increase the income/ city population when disbanded..... This will also reflect on real-life warfare and reduce the troop spam..... sounds good?

**Ichon** · September 23, 2011, 10:52 AM

As far as I know its hardcoded that MTW2 does not decrease city populations. This was done both to help AI which drained its cities and prevent abuse by human players. Higher upkeep for militias when out in the field with free upkeep in the cities is probably the best way to demonstrate the high economic costs though the main problem with this is the AI will need more money boost as it rarely pays attention to free upkeep.