Being Religious

[-Yo-]

Hi

Can anyone tell me what quality i would gain by having "God" in my life, i was born a "Catholic" but dont beleive i am of any religion attall, and i certainly dont beleive it would make my life any better if i went to church every Sunday and said prayers every night before bed. I am also a strong believer in Evolution and cant wait to see "The Davinci Code" when it comes out. I mean each to their own and repect to all who pray to their "God" but i just dont see what a person would gain by having religion in their life. Can someone explain the whole point or religion.


Lee H

[dashizller]

Personally, I think religion makes you blind.

[Zenith Darksea]

Ah, it's not all that bad. I'm a Christian (Greek Orthodox), and I believe in evolution and science and so forth. We're not all Mid-Western Americans, of course (in case any Mid-Western Americans are reading this, present company excepted). What's the point of religion? Good question. I once heard an American Greek Orthodox person (from the Mid-West, as it happens) say that we've all got a 'God-shaped hole' in us, and though I couldn't stop laughing after hearing that, I think he was on the right lines. The whole idea behind religion is that we were put here for a reason, and it's about linking back up with our original purpose. It's difficult to explain to someone though. Most people come to religion because they discover it within themselves. You might someday. You might not, of course.

As for the Da Vinci Code, I have little good to say about that. And I'm not just outraged by the travesty of history perpetrated by that book (I'm not Catholic, but the various 'facts' contained within the book are laughable and have been proven to be false long before Dan Brown even wrote the book), but by the fact that it's actually a terrible novel. One dimensional, cardboard cut-out characters with no personality (but lots of cliches), totally unoriginal plot (all his other thrillers are basically identical to the DVC, but with different proper nouns), turgid, irritating narrative style, lack of any suspense or thrill... The list of faults goes on.

[-Yo-]

Quote: The whole idea behind religion is that we were put here for a reason


I dont understand what you mean, how can i have a purpose in life other than have kids and make them happy (this example being the most important), no religion is ever going to have a hand in that.

Lee H

[Sam]

This is going to get messy.

I think that religion has stunted scientific progress for many centuries (not so much in the last couple). I also think that for all the religious based wars the world has seen, the innumerable deaths caused by religious divides, (far exceeding the number of deaths caused by nuclear weaponry) totally negates any possible benefits, but anyway...

One benefit perhaps is a strong belief that there is life after death (how much would it suck not being able to see your parents, siblings, etc again? Any form of 'heaven' serves as a sort of 'lollypop' to lure many people into a religion). Some people probably attain a sense of enlightenment, or a bond of some sort with what they believe to be a greater being. Some people may receive no real benefit other than not being shunned (or worse) if they don't accept a certain religion.

I saw a documentary a month or so ago, it was about a social experiment performed in the sixties, I don't remember exact details, so I'll describe the gist of it. There were four people seated in a room and they were to say how many pieces of string were equal in length to a control. Three of the people were actors, the other was the subject of the exam. They all examined the pieces of string from a distance of a couple of metres (no touching) and were then supposed to say to an examiner how many pieces of string were about equal in length to the control piece. The actors all would say a number which was painfully obviously wrong, and the subject would say the proper number. When the subject would say an answer that differed from the actors' answer, the actors would give him 'looks' and sideways glances in order to simulate social pressure to conform with the group. Surely enough, despite the subjects intuition, after only a couple of different answers, he began to conform to the actors' answers no matter how obviously wrong they were. Very interesting stuff (and one reason why many people would join a religion, as opposed to gaining something from it). Sorry to go off topic there, I just thought it was cool.

BTW, Yo, I like your sig.

[-Yo-]

Nice story, i like things like that, not sure what ide have done in same situation so i know what you mean with regards to peer pressure, it answers a few questions on why people are so proud of their religion. If every parent were to let their children choose their own religion it would really shake things up, and their is of course social acceptance or religions in certain areas. I choose to be of no religion and thats the way i like it.

Lee H

[Zenith Darksea]

I don't think it needs to get messy. Certain denominations of religion (Popes, you know who you are) and individuals may have acted against science's best interests at times, but religion itself is not intrinsically opposed to science. In fact, a truly confident religious person should want to see science advanced, not reversed. What have we got to fear? There have been innumerable deaths caused by religious divides. There have also been innumerable deaths caused by political divides. Shall we forsake politics? There have been many deaths caused by stairs. Let's only build bungalows! I think that answers your first point.

Social conformity is an issue sometimes, but not anymore, not really. At least not in the developed world. In most European countries today we have a society that assumes atheism rather than theism, and you'll find religious people more likely to be shunned than irreligious people. I don't know what it's like in America though.

I dont understand what you mean, how can i have a purpose in life other than have kids and make them happy (this example being the most important), no religion is ever going to have a hand in that.

When you have your kids, what will they do? Have kids? Will their kids have kids? And so why do we have kids? What's the point in that. The key here is not to look at aims in what we consider to be life, but to consider the possibility that there is a 'bigger picture' than your immediate life. Something outside the confines of what we see everyday. It's not just what your purpose in your immediate life is, but what humanity's purpose in existence? I'm not a professional theologian though, so I'm probably not going to be very informative.

[Sam]

I don't think it needs to get messy.

I agree, but it does (get messy) very often around here.

Certain denominations of religion (Popes, you know who you are) and individuals may have acted against science's best interests at times, but religion itself is not intrinsically opposed to science. In fact, a truly confident religious person should want to see science advanced, not reversed.

Yeah, I agree that religion isn't opposed to (most aspects of) science, but religion has hampered science's progress nonetheless, and sometimes it still does today (e.g, stem cell research, cloning). Only going back 160 or so years, I imagine that Darwin would have received more than a few vitriolic letters from religious followers, "The Church of England scientific establishment, including Darwin's old Cambridge tutors" also reacted against his theory of evolution. Such pressure forced upon just one man who didn't conform to intelligent design.

What have we got to fear? There have been innumerable deaths caused by religious divides. There have also been innumerable deaths caused by political divides. Shall we forsake politics? There have been many deaths caused by stairs. Let's only build bungalows! I think that answers your first point.

Its human nature, any form of divide results in conflict. Be it different football teams, a line drawn on a map, the amount of pigmentation in someone's skin, favourite video games (see Halo and Half Life fanboys), and of course, differing religions. All religions are the same in the amount of evidence that they have, so an extremist religious person in a position of power (e.g, the leaders during the crusades, Vlad the Impaler, Hitler... who distorted christianity in his own head) annihilating a bunch of 'heathens' and removing or replacing the heathen religion with their own is useless and acheives nothing. The war for independance was not all for nothing, nor was the American civil war, nor was WW2. Don't get me wrong, they were all horrific wastes of life, but something good was salvaged from the ruins.

Oh, and just for the record, I don't think any less of someone who follows a religion, and I don't want everybody to forsake religion.

Anyway, its terribly late over here, I'm dead tired and we have gotten way off topic, I feel a split topic coming on.

[-Yo-]

Apologies for my choice of words in my last post, i get carried away sometimes and without realising i might offend, same ways i dont take offense when i get it back. I have nothing against religious people i respect them and their views and can only comment on what i would or wouldnt do, so hope i didnt make any enemies.

[Gladiator]

The trouble is that all too often in human history, churches and priesthoods have set themselves up to rule people's lives in the name of some invisible god (and they're all invisible, because they don't exist) – and done terrible damage. In the name of their god, they have burned, hanged, tortured, maimed, robbed, violated, and enslaved millions of their fellow-creatures, and done so with the happy conviction that they were doing the will of God, and they would go to Heaven for it.

That is the religion I hate, and I'm happy to be known as its enemy.

[Garbarsardar]

Hi

Can anyone tell me what quality i would gain by having "God" in my life, i was born a "Catholic" but dont beleive i am of any religion attall, and i certainly dont beleive it would make my life any better if i went to church every Sunday and said prayers every night before bed. I am also a strong believer in Evolution and cant wait to see "The Davinci Code" when it comes out. I mean each to their own and repect to all who pray to their "God" but i just dont see what a person would gain by having religion in their life. Can someone explain the whole point or religion.


Lee H

I've seen religious faith bringing out the worst in some. I've seen religious faith bringing out the best in others. Let me use a cruel paraphrase now, but I think that if you are questionning faith you probably need it.

[Zenith Darksea]

Gladiator, I would point you to the beginning of my last post.

[LegionnaireX]

Yo, the satisfactory felt by religious people isn't a result of going to church and remembering to say their before-dinner prayer. Since you seem to be talking about Christianity here, I will give you some examples. You can routinely pray from the prayer books and go to sunday church but that will never better your life. The betterment comes when you begin to understand God's sacrifice and love for you and accept Christ into your heart. From their you will have a knew outlook on life that involves good will, charity anc courage, that stems from your own personal faith with Christ.

I'm sure to non-believers this sounds absurd but this is the answer to your question.

And about religion bringing about war that is true. I suppose the greatest downside to organized religion is that it does divide us. But even then you must look deeper into the various situations where religion supposedly caused war and you will realize that most of the time the fault lies in certain groups of people with a lust for power or violent intolerance, not the entire religion in general.

[-Yo-]

. The betterment comes when you begin to understand God's sacrifice and love for you and accept Christ into your heart. From their you will have a knew outlook on life that involves good will, charity anc courage.

Thats were i get off the train and say no to religion, it wont better me by being religious and no disrespect to you or any other *moderator edit mildly innapropriate*strong believe r but i dont need a new outlook on life, i have a good job 2 wonderful boys and a loving wife, ,what more could "God" add to that.

[Garbarsardar]

Thats were i get off the train and say no to religion, it wont better me by being religious and no disrespect to you or any other edited inappropriate comment - Asterix but i dont need a new outlook on life, i have a good job 2 wonderful boys and a loving wife, ,what more could "God" add to that.

Dear, Yo although I'm far from being religious myself, addressing someone as *moderator ditto* is not the best thing to do in your 14 post.

[LegionnaireX]

Thats were i get off the train and say no to religion, it wont better me by being religious and no disrespect to you or any other *moderator edit mildly innapropriate*strong believe r but i dont need a new outlook on life, i have a good job 2 wonderful boys and a loving wife, ,what more could "God" add to that.

In one word, plenty. God could give you reassurance, comfort and courage. He can give you morals and the wisdom to understand bad situations. Life without God may seem like freedom to some, but if you begin to ponder the reasons for life and the meaninglessness of it all without God, it is quite scary. Every moment could be your last, and losing two friends to disease over the past year as reminded me of that fact. And to live with the knowledge that I have served my God and done what I can to help my fellow man, and that God guides me through life and is my protector, it gives me comfort and assurance.

Thats just me and I am glad to know that the same feeling of hapiness and well-being is felt by many Christians.

btw, I did nothing to offend you in any way and it is obvious that you insulted me judging by the moderator's editing. Whats your beef?

[Gladiator]

Gladiator, I would point you to the beginning of my last post.

You can point me wherever you like but it will not alter my opinion. I am not suggesting that religion is the scourge of evil. The religious impulse to find meaning and purpose in our lives, the sense of awe and wonder when we look at the universe and the moral kinship we share with other human beings is all part of being human and I respect it and value it but organised, systematic religion is quite something else as explained in my previous post. Even the Bible is a conduit of manipulation spreading evil and discriminative venom by those misguided souls who vehemently believe they are preaching the word of God.

[shenmueguru]

Religion teaches us morals for the rest of our life, as many people know real christians/religions with good morals tend to be the nicest, caring people you meet. Also, religion teaches us that this is not our only home, that it is a "testing ground" for heaven. Christians don't need to worry about the "afterlife" since we know we will be in heaven after we die. There are tons of benefits, spiritual and physical, that religion provides (quick google searches will tell you) such as the average christian who attends service once a week generally lives about 7 years longer than the average non religious person.

[The White Knight]

I come from Belgium were people are mainly roman catholic, here goes...

As a child (yes, I am still a child, with child I mean 'aged -10') religion was something you could get a reward for -i.e. 'you behaved good in church and sang good, now you can stay up an hour longer this Saturday, ...'. Religion was empty for me, and had no meaning but to get presents.

Then comes a phase you try to see logic in the whole circus, you examine what the religion has to say, you evaluate what it did for you. Pitiful enough I could not draw positive conclusions from this little evaluation.

This was around the time I would do my second communion (11/12 years old). I say 'would', because I withdrew. The (pathetic) attempts to put me back on 'the right path' by my teacher back then did nothing than repulse me more of 'religion', as a concept.

Now I've come to the conclusion that the impact and influence of religions around the globe cannot be neglected, nor diminished.

For me, God does not exist, nor do I want it to exist, and I certainly do not want this concept to be monopolised by insitutes such as 'the Church', lead by "Medieval" leaders, stopping the progress for all, regardless of faith.

But, not all is bad. I've noticed an evolution. More and more people try to make things out for themselves, think rationally about 'God' and the world, without being mindlessly influenced by big religions.

As for the roman catholic church in particular: I heavily disagree with its repulse for gays, anti-conceptives, ... and I suspect this church won't survive another century. I've never met a priest/otherhighrankedguru younger than 60, and I don't think there are many candidates queuing for a rank either, due to the evolution explained in the previous paragraph.

At last, after centuries of 'oppression', the Belgians are thinking clearer, more independent and the Church is loosing its grip...

... or not.

Ps: This is probably a very confusing post: being a teenager it is natural for me to question a lot of things, be confused, or talk contradictingly (lol). I'm happy that TWC gives me the opportunity to think about eternal subjects such as religion.

Religion teaches us morals for the rest of our life, as many people know real christians/religions with good morals tend to be the nicest, caring people you meet.

Not necessarily. Also the 'religion teaches morals' thingie I a bit retarded imho. The morals teached by the church I know are often old-fashioned, and one could wonder: are people without religion inscrupulous bastards? -No, they're not. I believe in fundamental values, that don't need a cult to teach them.

Also, religion teaches us that this is not our only home, that it is a "testing ground" for heaven. Christians don't need to worry about the "afterlife" since we know we will be in heaven after we die.

Unless you go to hell...

There are tons of benefits, spiritual and physical, that religion provides (quick google searches will tell you) such as the average christian who attends service once a week generally lives about 7 years longer than the average non religious person.

Sorry, but that sounds a bit odd, to say at the least. Could you provide a source more specific than 'a quick google search'?

[Oldgamer]

I'm not going to attack either side in this thread. I'll just say what faith ... not religion, but faith ... has done for me.

I've spent a lifetime involved in the military, intel work, and what some people would call "black ops" (although I will not say a thing about the latter). I always had the desire to serve my country. Everytime I went overseas, I interpreted the mission as "pro-West" (generally), and "pro-American" (specifically).

However, I didn't make much of a living, doing these things. Well into my fifties, I decided to after a big payoff, in the Winter of 2005-2006. I volunteered for a mission ... which is not classified ... in which the target was the 50 million dollar turkey himself, Osama bin Laden.

I took training at several military bases in the States, learned how to use a new weapon (the Barrett XM-109 ... a 25mm sniper weapon equipped with a classified scope), and went somewhere, over there.

I dug into the side of a hill, close to its crest, which overlooked a broad and beautiful valley. From here, when the visibility was good, I could see for many miles. And when the weather wasn't good, I could still "see".

One day, after months of deployment, I saw three men coming up the valley. Looking closely, I saw a man who looked, in all respects, like Osama, including his height. I sent off a burst transmission, which eventually ended up in the Pentagon (ironically, my own son was working, that night, and he saw the transmission). I was given "weapons free" status, took careful aim, and fired.

You must understand about the XM-109, and M-107 (its 50-caliber cousin, widely in use in Iraq and Afghanistan), that the primary effect of a hit is psychological, on the people around the target. In this case, the 25mm shell hit the target just above the navel, and ripped him in half. The other two men went to ground, and started shooting wildly. Then, they got up and tried to run away. I straddled the two, and they went to ground, in terror.

After this, I sent another burst message, and several choppers were dispatched, which picked up the remains, and the two other men.

Not long after that, I went home ...

You see, even though the man that I shot was a member of Al Qaida, and was an Osama body double, I had trouble with what I had done, for the first time in my life. He was a man, like me. He had beliefs, like me. And I had torn him into two pieces for no better reason than he looked like Osama, and I would become rich from the process. In essence, I had violated everything I believed in, and killed a man for money.

I went home ...

So, how does this story match up with this thread, you might be asking?

First, I will never go overseas again: military, intel, or "black ops".

Second, I have ... in essence ... laid down the sword, and have responded to the call of God on my life (a call that has been there since I was about 10 years old) to enter the ministry. In the Fall Quarter of 2007, I will enter a seminary, and learn how to bring the Truth of God to people, in the pastoral ministry.

You see, Yo, I believe that faith allows us to make sense of the madness of this world, much of which I have participated in. I believe that faith allows us to see our own nature, and that God freely offers a way out. Indeed, this Friday, we will celebrate God's making a way for us, as we look to the Crucifixion, in which God reconciled the human race to him.

I also believe that, without faith, there is no justice. What? Did Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, and all of the other mass killers of the 20th Century just "get away with it", when they died?

This Sunday, the Christian world will celebrate Easter, which is God's Promise to the human race that death has been overcome, through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is another freely-bestowed gift. We didn't do anything to deserve it. It we got what we deserved, all we would have to look forward to is death and the grave.

I know that there are people in our community at TWC who don't believe in these things. But if they ever come to believe in them, these gifts are there. Martin Luther said, "For we are justified by faith alone, by grace alone, and by Christ alone." No "works" such as regular attendance at church are required here.

And when you come to believe, how can the gift of Reconciliation with God not change you? How can the Justice of God not change you? How can the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection of Christ not change you?

As I look back on my life, though my intentions were good, all I see is a killer-for-hire. That God can take one such as me and change all of that, and use me for the good of His people, is what faith has done. And once again, it is faith, not religion, that has done this in my life.

Faith alone ...