Cossacks vs. Musketeers

[oighear_dubh]

I have attempted to search this topic several times in the SS forums, but I never could find a definite answer.

Why are Cossacks weaker than Musketeers? Cossacks are listed as 24 missile, while regular musketeers are listed as 32 missile. When I play a custom battle between Novgorod Cossack Musketeers versus England Musketeers, Novgorod loses every time. I was under the impression that the Cossacks should at the very least be equal in effectiveness to western musketeers. If I recall correctly, in vanilla MTW2, the Cossacks were indeed better.. but I could be wrong. Is there a reason why they are weaker?

Also, in an off-note, Janissary Heavy Infantry are absolute beasts.. I still haven't found another heavy infantry unit that can beat them.

[Vespasian92]

Because Eastern Europeans, especially in the Far East of Europe, were technologically behind western europe. Factions in Western Europe and Italy develop better technology than factions in the Far or Middle East.

[oighear_dubh]

Because Eastern Europeans, especially in the Far East of Europe, were technologically behind western europe. Factions in Western Europe and Italy develop better technology than factions in the Far or Middle East.

I wasn't aware of that, but it makes total sense if that's the case. Definitely not a game breaker though, especially using the Battle for the Baltic submod!

[Ichon]

Because Eastern Europeans, especially in the Far East of Europe, were technologically behind western europe. Factions in Western Europe and Italy develop better technology than factions in the Far or Middle East.

That is not the reason- its supposed to represent a later lighter version of the musket actually with faster rate of fire and be quite cheaper but I'm not sure its represented well right now.

It should be that early handguns are quite expensive and unreliable and probably not AP- IE not cause many casualties however they are worth if for their morale affects. Due to their slow reload and low lethality the first handgunners still wear melee armor and carry melee weapons. Starting in 1300s these guys should still be relatively rare and expensive since they are wearing both good armor and carrying expensive weapons.

Then arquebuses which are more expensive as the skill of the gunner is being paid for and few people at this point have much skill with guns. Having low rate of fire but much more accurate and the first AP gunpowder weapons but they should move more at the speed of phalanx formation because they carried a tripod and alot of gear. Still get morale affects- probably the most effective of the weapons relatively in pike and shot formations. 1400s.

Later versions of handguns get cheaper but less accurate however with higher rate of fire, still move slowly and no morale affects as they are a normal part of battles now. 1500s.

The late muskets should be decent rate of fire, only slightly less accurate than arquebuses, cheaper, and lighter. These are the kind of muskets that ended the medieval age and more and more soldiers were armed with them and melee weapons became secondary. However such guns weren't prevalent until late 1600s.

[Vespasian92]

That is not the reason- its supposed to represent a later lighter version of the musket actually with faster rate of fire and be quite cheaper but I'm not sure its represented well right now.

No? Hmm strange. My memory seems to be screwing with me lol. I seem to remember something about the Eastern Factions not getting the gunpowder and advanced armor like Western Europe does. My bad then

[Taran.]

Because Eastern Europeans, especially in the Far East of Europe, were technologically behind western europe. Factions in Western Europe and Italy develop better technology than factions in the Far or Middle East.

I disagree. The first European use of the arquebus was in Hungary. Every third soldier in the Black Army of Hungary had an arquebus, which was an unusually hig ratio for that era.

[MikeNice808]

Because the game designers hate pirogies and stuffed cabbage so they make the east weaker than the west in EVERYTHING!!!!! lol

[Sergeant Matt]

Because the game designers hate pirogies and stuffed cabbage so they make the east weaker than the west in EVERYTHING!!!!! lol

Ha! Eastern horse archers rip everything in the west apart.

[MikeNice808]

Ha! Eastern horse archers rip everything in the west apart.

No way! Put Luchniki who do like three damage against armored knights. I play these guys all the time. horse archers are good in the begginning but thats really it. Out of all the factions that utilize horse archers the Ukrainians are the weakest. Check the stats. True Polotsk Boyars are very good but they are also very rare and they have enough javelins to take maybe once squardon of troops before they run out. And in 6.4 The Kievan-Rus have no settlements that become citadels where is the only place you can train them. I like this mod but hope in the future this faction gets rebalancing and the Cumans actually get some troops. I feel this area of the map, and yes I know about the Baltic submod, has been overshadowed and somewhat neglected by the modding team.

[popovic]

I also feel that the late Eastern European factions should get a few good units. This should especially go for Novgorod and Kievans, as historically, these factions formed Russia in the end (not directly but through Muscovy). So, unlike Cumans etc. it`s not that one would need to make up some sort of "fantasy" units.

[MikeNice808]

I also feel that the late Eastern European factions should get a few good units. This should especially go for Novgorod and Kievans, as historically, these factions formed Russia in the end (not directly but through Muscovy). So, unlike Cumans etc. it`s not that one would need to make up some sort of "fantasy" units.

Not necessarily my friend. At the end of the day the Cuman territories became the Tartars and they battled with the Russians well into the 1600's. These were a fierce fighting peoples whose predecessars were the Huns, as I understand. This can be a formidable faction unto itself. The thing about this mod in my honest opinion is that ANY faction should be good enough to conquer the whole map given the right circumstances. Being historically correct is good as far as culture wise and unit wise but I like to think this as playing it and re-writing history. but thats just me...

[Gogolometro]

Kiev disapear soon after cumans, so they must have better weapons? In think not. Already they have some excellent units. The reality is in time when Michelangelo painted Sixteen Chapel and Vasco da Gama opened the route to Indies, the russians, cuman lived a very different society.

[MikeNice808]

Kiev disapear soon after cumans, so they must have better weapons? In think not. Already they have some excellent units. The reality is in time when Michelangelo painted Sixteen Chapel and Vasco da Gama opened the route to Indies, the russians, cuman lived a very different society.

If Kiev disappeared then why is there a city today still named Kiev? No they were trod upon for a time by a powerhouse but they survived and are the orignators of a people still alive today. This "different" society still carries on and carried on then. Being a vassal to the mongols never stopped the culture. Many peoples submitted to the Mongols and were incoperated into the Mongolian horde. Which was why the Mongols were so dangerous. And SS is fantasy not historical reality because if it were than why play the game at all. Just read a history book.

[sahensah]

i need to say the jannisery musketeers should be improved too. they are ottomans, and they have to conquer at least the hungarian provinces. you might say the western factions did have better musket technology, then the jannisery musketeers could be better in close combat. playing with the turks is hard enough in early periods it should be easier later.

[MikeNice808]

i need to say the jannisery musketeers should be improved too. they are ottomans, and they have to conquer at least the hungarian provinces. you might say the western factions did have better musket technology, then the jannisery musketeers could be better in close combat. playing with the turks is hard enough in early periods it should be easier later.

I agree...I think there should equal balance for all...Im a SS communist!!!! LOL

[Taran.]

I agree...I think there should equal balance for all...Im a SS communist!!!! LOL

Yes! Communism is good! All must be equal!

[MikeNice808]

Yes! Communism is good! All must be equal!

Yeah in fake life like a game or the NFL....as far as real life....well we, seen how that turned out...I got Ukrainian blood some stories from family......


There are more pro-communists in Harvard and Yale then in ALL of eastern europe....

[Taran.]

Yeah in fake life like a game or the NFL....as far as real life....well we, seen how that turned out...I got Ukrainian blood some stories from family......


There are more pro-communists in Harvard and Yale then in ALL of eastern europe....

Russia during the communist period was a far better place to live than present-day Russia, but for the Ukraine, that might be different of course. There are still a lot of communists in Russia as well, seeing that the communist party is the second-largest one.
But let's not turn this in a discussion about communism, shall we?

[Ichon]

i need to say the jannisery musketeers should be improved too. they are ottomans, and they have to conquer at least the hungarian provinces. you might say the western factions did have better musket technology, then the jannisery musketeers could be better in close combat. playing with the turks is hard enough in early periods it should be easier later.

It depends on the time period. SS makes handguns much more prevalent and powerful quite early but also makes cannon less important. Ottomans had probably the best cannon artillery for nearly 100 years 1450-1550 while handguns were fairly equal in not being very good not matter where.

Heavy arquebuses or muskets rested on forks or tripods with uniform calibre and more standard gunpowder quality of the mid 1500s was when Western firearms began to surpass Ottomans but it was mostly in the manufacture of gunpowder that the western Europeans were superior until 1600s when better industrial techniques and methods of metallurgy surpassed Ottomans though Ottomans still had access to weapons nearly as good as the best European manufacture until 1700s.

Early Ottomans should have superior light cavalry, decent heavy cavalry, average light infantry, and elite heavy infantry with janissaries being first melee armed and then with long bore muskets and light cannon artillery.