[HISTORICAL ISSUE] - Croatian Kings (Croatian Documentary)

[Sarisophoros]

@Sarisophoros

i'm sure that mat knows croatian history better than you do so, no need for him to google. and about internet, it gives a lot of untrusted info, with no real evidence. you can't compare english history to balkan history, since theirs is fully researched, while ours need peaces, and is made by many fractures. not to mention that english kings' history is based after battle of hastings, a period which don't belong to early medievals, and period which has a lot more evidence even on balkans. early medievals of england is also not much unknown, so you should expect the same for croatia in that period. and also historians are making hell good job on comparing texts from early medievals in order to get one picture of early medieval croatia

I will not go into what other people know and what they think they know. I know what I know so I will go on that. Googling was a picture of how easy it is to see in any document that we were more a nation of half slaves then independent people ruled by great kings. I meant to say that through our history it is clear that we had a period of princes, not kings, then we were under Hungarian rule, Austrian, then Turks and then Yugoslavia. 1.000 YEARS PERIOD. And listen, every history is in fractions. English history begins after 1066? What about Alfred the Great then? When did he live? Does he have a statue raised in his honor as an english king? I was talking in general, I took England as an example of my point. Sorry, thought that was clear. Plus we do know what was life like here in that period and I think that this series goes against it. Rulers are presented as if they made Pope and Byzantium do what they willed when in fact they had to obey them.

TO A MEMBER WHO DELETED MY POSTS, I DO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS, I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF THE POST AND I CAN NOT REMEMBER THE NAME

Plus and A BIG PLUS it is, I will kindly ask you to put my posts back up. I posted on the subject here not addressing to you or your post not even with a single word. Then you started talking about them, belittling my posts and in the end allowed yourself to delete them when I tried to explain the all over again to you. Now I see that understanding of the text was not the problem, the problem was that I think something you do not approve. I took me a lot of time at my PC and effort to invest here to clearly arange my thoughts and arange them in order to clearly explain myself and I really do believe that such an action does not deserve a single one second press of a button to just simply delete the efforts of a argumented post by a member here just because you might see things in another way.

So I will please, please ask you not to behave in a way that you put down the effort and thoughts of members posting here, nothing to say about deleting them and put my posts back and all will be OK then with me. I do hope I will see results from you soon not just a post 2 minutes after mine and a log out. I did wait for an answer for an hour and a half when I saw that you read this post, look at the time of editing, but I can not wait any more. Hope you answer for this soon.

I was not out of order, if you think you were that is another matter. I logged on this morning and I could not believe that a member would allow himself to declare my arguments when explaining my read on the subject TROLLING, insulting me by responding to my post with a saying DONT THROW PEARLS BEFORE SWINES and then delete posts of another member because he has different beliefs. I have personaly contacted him to please return my posts about this tv series I made here and I had to be harsh and say that I will protect myself if he does not and contact admins about this issue. I am really sorry that my thoughts on the series have convinced you I am trolling, I really am. Because I posted to give my view on Croatian history and the way it is presented in this series. But I still can not believe that you would allow yourself to delete them just like that. You are wrong, I am not a troll, I am A Croat who knows very little about the period but has a feeling that I have more in my little finger then people who selfproclaimed themselves experts on the period here by naming professors and so on. So I posted and posted with strong arguments to which you responed with a peoples saying. I mean what is that? Where do people talk like that? And then in lack of arguments you post two sentences: You are convinced I am a troll and you delete my posts. Unbelievable, you think you can get away with that? I mean, really. Who are you to do that? So, I will use my "powers" now. "you will thank me not to post here anymore"? How do you allow yourself to talk to people in that way. To horass me like this, simply delete my posts and run me out of the room. Where do you live to behave like that?

P.S. Good thing I keep screenshots of my posts so I can mail them to anyone (I am talking about admins offcourse.) to judge for themselves if I was discussing the subject or trolling and to give me a VERY, VERY good reason why someone, anyone can appoint himself to delete my posts in a public conversation area.

And yes, you were right; Radovan and Pradovan going to buy beans out of state is just as important as military and political events in a land in any period in history in any state and well worth mentioning in a serious conversation. Especially in a series about kings and it does not in any way add a Monthy Python comical effect. I am sorry if this impression has come across.

Another P.S. I do hope that people will post here about the line of series and how it relates to life in these parts because it is our national history and as such it does have a little more space in our interest. And sorry if I do not post until next weekend. I work 10-12 hours and really have no strenght to go online when I get home. Another huge reason why I REALLY do not like to see that someone deletes my posts made on my only free time when I can find it and simply delete that my free time invested here discussing the subject I like on his own free will with no reason. You simply can not act like that to people. Unbelievable. Or will this be declared trolling also and deleted?

[Matthæus]

to Bosnian king

maybe this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD6nm...eature=related

there is no official soundrack out yrt, but check videos with "end of episode x" for music

[NikeBG]

Sarisophoros, although it's not my place to say it, but I have to agree - judging from your posts, you are either a troll or you have some rather serious psychological deviations (and I'm in no way saying this as an insult). Before you ask me elaborately about why I think so, I'll mention two of the things I've noticed - 1) extremely egocentric behaviour and demandings and 2) keeping screenshots of your posts. On the second part in particular, as I've said, I see only two possible reasons for such a behaviour - trolling or serious psychologic deviation. I may be wrong, of course, but that's the only two reasons I see.
And, please, if you think it worthy to reply or complain about something here - do it more shortly! I think it's much better for someone to show one's own point by being short and clear rather than the opposite.

[2Shy]

I just love seeing some badass bulgars with zweihanders

[DobroVece]

Bah. I haven't seen all of his posts, but I think the guy is pissed of, and possible with a good reason. He don't like the show, he said it, and bare in mind that he has the right to do so, and got gagged. Not cool.

[Sarisophoros]

Bah. I haven't seen all of his posts, but I think the guy is pissed of, and possible with a good reason. He don't like the show, he said it, and bare in mind that he has the right to do so, and got gagged. Not cool.

Thank you very much. Exactly, someone here apparently can tell me to shut up and more remove my conversation. I mean, where does that exist? I am not p.off, I am very surprised that a member gave his opinion in a thread, one other member on his own free will deleted posts in my opinion WITH NO REASON and nothing. I thought that by these days rights of members do mean something. Not just something you do not even read and just click "I Accept". I posted here because I thought that this could go in the direction of an open discussion about how the show relates to our history and I tried to explain my thoughts about it. And that Croats could speak a bit openly with a greater range of facts about it. And that people might be interested to see what Croats actually think and why, knowing their own history with a bit greater interest and all. I was an idiot the second I said that I think that it is not that good at all. My posts got deleted and that was it. Shot in the dark.

And what if I do indeed have some some rather serious psychological deviations? What, you are a big man saying that to someone who really might have that problem or are you using that difficult problem to put me down in any way? But no, nor am I a troll nor do I have that problem in life. How can I be a troll talking about Croatian kings series in a CROATIAN KINGS SUBJECT ROOM? I mean really? This is what it looks like when someone is defednding hymself. And to tell you I have not heard a single word from the hero who deleted me after I made reports of this situation. So I guess that it is time that some other BIG MAN takes the torch.

P.S. I keep all screenshots in posts where I was insulted. It is a sign of thought, later proof of a said word. Just as you would keep a mail or a photo to prove a state for work reasons. IT IS NEVER A BAD THING. And this is trolling, sorry, I had to.

[SpyrosM91]

ok guys, stop this because we are losing the point here...
@Sarisophoros (actually Sarissophoros is more correct...) you made your point about the movie.... we understood that.... please guys don't continue...

[NikeBG]

What, you are a big man saying that to someone who really might have that problem or are you using that difficult problem to put me down in any way?

Yes, I'd say I am a relatively big man (average height, but rather well-built for my size), but for completely unrelated reasons. Least of all for pointing something like that out (as I said, I in no way am using it as an insult), considering I have some deviations myself (f.e. OCD - I feel the need to put my shoes and other specific items in perfect symmetry). Why I pointed it out is to show you why you're treated like a troll - because you either are indeed a troll or your behaviour can be interpreted as trollish. I.e. you're acting like one. And by that I'm talking about your recent posts, not the deleted ones, which I haven't seen (except the first one, which I don't really remember anyway). And since smart people treat trolls with silence, that seems to be what you're facing (except from me, since I'm not a particularly smart person, it seems).

[Hrobatos]

I just ignore trolls

[Sarisophoros]

ok guys, stop this because we are losing the point here...
@Sarisophoros (actually Sarissophoros is more correct...) you made your point about the movie.... we understood that.... please guys don't continue...

Yes, you are right. It should be about series. Sarissophoros is a new, English word. Taken from the name which was used by Old Macedonians for these soldiers, Sarisophoros, from Sarisa.They did not have two s in the name if that is what you mean.

[Stevcho the Serb]

Is sixth episode final?

[Hrobatos]

no last one will be about migration of Craots to Balkans and theories of origin.

[The Despondent Mind]

and theories of origin.

oh dear god
I expect a lot of rant in this thread after that episode .

[Tommygunz]

All in all I have to say I expected a bit more out of the whole thing. I'm just gonna say what I think, it was too boring and high-minded for what it was intended to be.

I mean it's all historically correct, I guess, but I was expecting to see more of what it's all supposed to have looked (and sounded) like. The historical characters barely ever talk and when they do they are interupted by the narrator (with his deadly boring voice), I guess I can understand why they did that with the historic parts (when they talk about the kings etc.) But in the part where they wanted to show what the day to day life looked like back then I think it would've been better to cut the narrator out and just let the characters talk and make it simply an act. That would have been more entertaining and would have interested more of the plebs into watching this show (you know, the people who aren't as interested in history as the TWC community).

Može se opet reći: "Ne bacajte biserje pred svinje", ali što ćeš kada je naša država jedan veliki svinjac, kud ćemo s biserima? Bolje ih je pomiješati s kamenjem da bi se zainteresiralo i svinje, koje bi uz to progutale i biserje.

Of course I'm not as much of an expert on history as some of the people who've posted here, I'm just a part of the ignorant majority whom these episodes were intended to educate.

[Sarisophoros]

To me also the last one was the best one. To say the most interesting. Because it is not possible to say for certain from where, how and when we came to exist as Croats in these parts. Hrvat, in the last episode, was said to be the name of a group, not of people of same nationality. A group of people who were guarding the borders of Avar Khaganate in Great Pannonian plain. And name Hrvat can be found all along that border line for people who did that duty no matter of their nationality. Later, when Charlemagne went to war with Avars Some Hrvats helped him and by doing that they managed to take control of people in these parts and make them all call themselves Hrvati so to put them under their rule.

[phoenix[illusion]]

nationality in middle ages

To me also the last one was the best one. To say the most interesting. Because it is not possible to say for certain from where, how and when we came to exist as Croats in these parts. Hrvat, in the last episode, was said to be the name of a group, not of people of same nationality. A group of people who were guarding the borders of Avar Khaganate in Great Pannonian plain. And name Hrvat can be found all along that border line for people who did that duty no matter of their nationality. Later, when Charlemagne went to war with Avars Some Hrvats helped him and by doing that they managed to take control of people in these parts and make them all call themselves Hrvati so to put them under their rule.

you wanna say that croats that lived in middle ages in their state were not same as proto-croats. it's the same for every people. of course that proto-croats were called by name hrvati before, and that name was passed to all peoples living in areas around them or under their rule and mixed with peoples while settling, which made them hrvati too in middle ages.

[Sarisophoros]

No, no. I mean to say that I have never heard of this theory before. With Avars.

Croats were supposed to come from White Croatia, Czechoslovakia, led by a man named Hrvat.
And Czechoslovakians were supposed to come to Czechoslovakia led by a man named Chech from Croatia. So...
This idea of border area populated by various people called Hrvati because of their role has a good historic basis.

[NikeBG]

Does it? Just because it sounds logical (to some degree) doesn't mean that's its actual basis. F.e. I've read of a similar theory in Bulgaria, posited usually by some autochtonists (although it seems it's originally proposed by a Greek), that "Bulgar" is actually derived from Latin for "a group of people guarding the northern borders of the Roman Empire". Naturally, in reality that's just a fringe thesis, nothing more, since there's nothing conclusive to support it and it even goes against pretty much everything history knows about those people. In the same way, is there any actual evidence that those people on the Avar border were called Hrvati and not something else (or anything at all)? As I've mentioned before, I can't watch the other episodes, so sorry if there's any actual proof given in that episode...

[phoenix[illusion]]

hmm, it also reminds me of theory of serbian name. one says that it comes from root ser- which means to watch, to protect. other is latin servare with almost the same meaning, to guard, to protect. also to mention DAI in which constantine says it comes from name of the servants since serbs were servants to roman emperor. but non of them can quite be right, since serb tribe name exist long before any contact with roman people.

[DobroVece]

Wait. I have a crappy internet so I haven't watch it. I see terms 'various people', and 'Czech from Croatia', 'Hrvat from Czechoslovakia'. My question is:
Does this theory questions the Slavic origin of Croats?