The Mongol Invasions of the world (e.g. huns, golden horde etc)

[Darkarbiter]

So the mongols have been screwing up the world for thousands of years. With the huns naturally came the great migration and the downfall of the roman empire, with the mongols came the absolute devastation of the Islamic and Eastern European world. It's worth nothing that Russian culture is very influenced by both waves of Mongol culture. Firstly because Russian peasants were extremely free (and their society was generally very free and liberal) in early medieval times, right up until the high period (1200s and later) when a lot of Russian kings copied mongols with a lot of issues. I don't think I need to go into how the mongol culture is actually possibly the cruellest culture (that has actually controlled any significant amount of land) that has existed anywhere where much documentation has existed (i.e. not sub Saharan Africa). Lets just say that for instance the Russians didn't have any idea about the death penalty until they came along.

The history of Russia from the 1200s onwards is that of conquering various mongol/tartar/siberian/ex hun lands (bearing in mind the siberian tribes cover more than what's called siberia nowdays, that used to be far eastern siberia)). While the integration was extremely successful on a level that's never really been seen anywhere in the world (and certainly europe) except for perhaps the integration of spanish muslims into the spanish identity)... as with any change of religion or even culture I think it's fair to say there's a syncretism between anything cultural or religious. I.e. What I am saying is that since lets be honest Russia is not in fact majority ethnic Russian it's fair to say that Russian culture is not necassarily the same 100% slavic culture it was in 1000s (not to say there's anything particularly great about slav culture)... and that it is a mixture of both the mongol cultures.

The conclusion of this means... that the entire cold war and occupation of Eastern Europe by the Russians was basically just the Mongols ing up the world again, only this time with Russian cultural influences (if say the first time they were part Chinese, the second time they were part Muslim world).

[Prosaic Visitant]

Actually, the Mongols weren't the 'cruelest' culture. They were proponents of religious freedom and they generally had a "don't with me and I wont with you" attitude.

[.L.]

First off the Huns were NOT the same as the Mongols.

Second the Mongols did not cause the collapse of the Islamic world, since they continued to be quite useful and France would not have signed the Franco-Ottoman treaty if they had collapsed.

Third Russia did actually have the death penalty before the Mongols came along.

Fourth Mongols were not as bad as you say, true they were not very nice if you fought back or killed their diplomats(any historic Sultan/King who tried this HAD to have a death wish), but if you surrendered, they would spare you and treat you quite well.

[Condottiere 40K]

Outside of the fact that the Mongols left genetic material all over Russia, what the Russians adopted was their autocratic style rather than a more democratic one from the previous immigrants, the Rus.

It could be argued that in order to keep the Russian people in a cohesive union, no other option exists, or was possible in face of the multiple challenges the country faced.

Personally, I think the Russians would be happier if they had gone the other way, and still would have achieved as much.

[Cat-astrophic]

Fourth Mongols were not as bad as you say, true they were not very nice if you fought back or killed their diplomats(any historic Sultan/King who tried this HAD to have a death wish), but if you surrendered, they would spare you and treat you quite well.

What about the tactics the mongols used? Even though some of the invasions were responses the mongols massacred civilian populations on several occasions. Also they used torture, biological warfare (some believe they were responsible for the spread of the Black Death in Europe) and conquer-slay-plunder-leave tactics. They spared no one be it men, woman, child or the elderly. Genghis Khan even liked to call himself "The Punishment of God".

The Mongols commited major massacres against civil populations at least on these occasions:

Invasion of Khwarezmia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_..._of_Khwarezmia;
Invasion of Nishapur and Baghdad - http://mongolianhistory.blogspot.com...iran-iraq.html;
Invasion of North China - http://www.imperialchina.org/yuan.html.

Some more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death;
http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyc...ngol-conquests.

[molonthegreat]

What about the tactics the mongols used? Even though some of the invasions were responses the mongols massacred civilian populations on several occasions. Also they used torture, biological warfare (some believe they were responsible for the spread of the Black Death in Europe) and conquer-slay-plunder-leave tactics. They spared no one be it men, woman, child or the elderly. Genghis Khan even liked to call himself "The Punishment of God".

The Mongols commited major massacres against civil populations at least on these occasions:

Invasion of Khwarezmia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_..._of_Khwarezmia;
Invasion of Nishapur and Baghdad - http://mongolianhistory.blogspot.com...iran-iraq.html;
Invasion of North China - http://www.imperialchina.org/yuan.html.

Some more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death;
http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyc...ngol-conquests.

The Shah had it coming, he tried to screw the mongols when they sent gifts and he then learnt why you don't with Genghis Khan.

[Azog 150]

The Shah had it coming, he tried to screw the mongols when they sent gifts and he then learnt why you don't with Genghis Khan.

And all the innocent men, women and children who lived under the Shah?

The Japanese in WW2 were more brutal,they would wipe out a citizens population rape its women then drop bombs with fleas carrying the black death on them just to see if it works.

The Mongols did the exact same thing, although rather then dropping bombs they liked to catapult diseased bodies into besieged cities

[bushranger]

And all the innocent men, women and children who lived under the Shah?








The Mongols did the exact same thing, although rather then dropping bombs they liked to catapult diseased bodies into besieged cities

Yes but the Mongols did it for a means to a end to stop long sieges like they en counted in china.The japs did it for the sh!ts and giggles.

[molonthegreat]

And all the innocent men, women and children who lived under the Shah?

Collateral damage.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

What about the tactics the mongols used? Even though some of the invasions were responses the mongols massacred civilian populations on several occasions. Also they used torture, biological warfare (some believe they were responsible for the spread of the Black Death in Europe) and conquer-slay-plunder-leave tactics. They spared no one be it men, woman, child or the elderly. Genghis Khan even liked to call himself "The Punishment of God".

The Mongols commited major massacres against civil populations at least on these occasions:

Invasion of Khwarezmia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_..._of_Khwarezmia;
Invasion of Nishapur and Baghdad - http://mongolianhistory.blogspot.com...iran-iraq.html;
Invasion of North China - http://www.imperialchina.org/yuan.html.

Some more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death;
http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyc...ngol-conquests.

Ok, so, the Khwarezms who had very friendly relations with the Mongols slaughtered a Mongol caravan and when the Mongols sent diplomats to demand the man who ordered this punished, they ended up with the first envoys having their hair cut, something considered very bad by the Mongols and the next envoy slaughtered. Can't say I'm surprised by the Mongol reaction. In fact I applaud them for punishing those s.

[Cat-astrophic]

this is my modus operandi when it comes to enemy factions. i approve.

Now we know where the idea for the followers of Khorne came from

The Shah had it coming, he tried to screw the mongols when they sent gifts and he then learnt why you don't with Genghis Khan.

Ok, so, the Khwarezms who had very friendly relations with the Mongols slaughtered a Mongol caravan and when the Mongols sent diplomats to demand the man who ordered this punished, they ended up with the first envoys having their hair cut, something considered very bad by the Mongols and the next envoy slaughtered. Can't say I'm surprised by the Mongol reaction. In fact I applaud them for punishing those s.

It's just a litte bit out of proportion perhaps? Like killing your diplomats, tax collectors or caravans is war ok, but afterwards you go and slaughter every living thing? There was nothing left to rule afterwards.

[brandbll]

Now we know where the idea for the followers of Khorne came from





It's just a litte bit out of proportion perhaps? Like killing your diplomats, tax collectors or caravans is war ok, but afterwards you go and slaughter every living thing? There was nothing left to rule afterwards.

This whole "they exterminated anything that resisted them" is ridiculous. They didn't just go around and exterminate every living thing. A lot of this kind of BS about the Mongols is one of two things: propoganda that was created by the Mongols themselves to instill fear into future cities/towns/nations/tribes they might come upon, OR it was written by people the Mongols defeated and was over-exagerated out of the anger of defeat and loss of loved ones. Some of the accounts of "exterminations" just don't even match up. For example, the historical source will say "a million people were slaughtered here..." when in fact we know it was impossible for even a tenth of that to live in that area. And, if a source is willing to greatly exagerate the total of some "extermination" it leads one to wonder whether an extermination even took place.

[Denny Crane!]

Don't forget Tamerlane (founder of the mountain of skulls cliche)

[=Bright=]

Don't forget Tamerlane (founder of the mountain of skulls cliche)

He may have been cruel on the battlefields and towards his enemies but he also was a patron to arts and architecture. Some of Central Asia's most beautiful buildings were built under his rule.

What about the tactics the mongols used? Even though some of the invasions were responses the mongols massacred civilian populations on several occasions. Also they used torture, biological warfare (some believe they were responsible for the spread of the Black Death in Europe) and conquer-slay-plunder-leave tactics. They spared no one be it men, woman, child or the elderly. Genghis Khan even liked to call himself "The Punishment of God".

The Mongols gave everybody the chance to surrender and become either a vassal or part of thier empire. Only if there was resistance they acted in the reckless way most people know them.

[KnightsTemplar]

He may have been cruel on the battlefields and towards his enemies but he also was a patron to arts and architecture. Some of Central Asia's most beautiful buildings were built under his rule.



The Mongols gave everybody the chance to surrender and become either a vassal or part of thier empire. Only if there was resistance they acted in the reckless way most people know them.

Troll identify unit: UNKNOWN
You sir, is either a troll or, well, strange.
By arts and architecture I think it means 'warcraft'.
No, not the game. It's the weapons and things. Tools are screwing people up.

Giving people a chance to surrender doesn't justify ANYTHING.
Why people should follow you?
Let them follow, not make them.
Even they don't, just leave them alone. Killing everyone just because they won't obey you is totally ass.

Btw, when I read the reply again, I got a glimpse of the signature.
Then I lol'd. AND problem solved.

[Erebus Pasha]

Troll identify unit: UNKNOWN
You sir, is either a troll or, well, strange.
By arts and architecture I think it means 'warcraft'.
No, not the game. It's the weapons and things. Tools are screwing people up.
.

No he is not trolling. Look up any biography of Timur-i-Lenk and you will find that indeed he was a great patron of arts. Unfortunately he was sadistically brutal and ruthlessly crushed all opponents. He was in the process of invading China when he died, sparing the Chinese a great deal of suffering.

[=Bright=]

Troll identify unit: UNKNOWN
You sir, is either a troll or, well, strange.
By arts and architecture I think it means 'warcraft'.
No, not the game. It's the weapons and things. Tools are screwing people up.

Giving people a chance to surrender doesn't justify ANYTHING.
Why people should follow you?
Let them follow, not make them.
Even they don't, just leave them alone. Killing everyone just because they won't obey you is totally ass.

Btw, when I read the reply again, I got a glimpse of the signature.
Then I lol'd. AND problem solved.

No, I'm not trolling. I'll just quote Wikipedia on this one.

He was known to bring the most talented artisans from the lands he conquered back to Samarkand, and is credited with often giving them a wide latitude of artistic freedom to express themselves.

Read it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur#C...ns_to_the_arts

Also forcing people into your empire was and is a very common thing since ancient eras. The Mongols were not the only ones to conquer lands. And to be honest, it certainly wasn't a bad thing to be part of the Mongol empire. They provided peace and safety. A rare thing in those ages.

Oh and my signature has nothing to do with the topic. So don't come up with it. Thanks.

[KnightsTemplar]

No, I'm not trolling. I'll just quote Wikipedia on this one.

Read it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur#C...ns_to_the_arts

Also forcing people into your empire was and is a very common thing since ancient eras. The Mongols were not the only ones to conquer lands. And to be honest, it certainly wasn't a bad thing to be part of the Mongol empire. They provided peace and safety. A rare thing in those ages.

Oh and my signature has nothing to do with the topic. So don't come up with it. Thanks.

.......
When talking about Mongols, I always think about the House of Wisdom......
Maintaining a 'peace and safety' by killing everyone who don't wholey support you and oppressing the rest is not really a great thing.
Least I don't think so.

BTW I thought that signature was for representing yourself.....?
Maybe.

[Exarch]

The Mongols gave everybody the chance to surrender and become either a vassal or part of thier empire. Only if there was resistance they acted in the reckless way most people know them.

this is my modus operandi when it comes to enemy factions. i approve.

[KnightsTemplar]

this is my modus operandi when it comes to enemy factions. i approve.

Hi Exarch.
Bye Exarch.



WTF am I doing messing around here.
It's so strange and creepy.