The BEST quote of antiquity

[Arvedui01]

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
-Marcus Aurelius

I didn't even find this until about a week ago, which makes me wonder- why isn't this more widespread? Do people not understand his reasoning?

Mods, move this to historical forum if you feel it necessary

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

I didn't even find this until about a week ago, which makes me wonder- why isn't this more widespread? Do people not understand his reasoning?

It probably isn't more widespread because it conflicts with most monotheistic religions i.e. their heaven entry is 90% dependent on faith, and only a small portion if on deeds. None at all, if forgiveness is prayed for.

Great quote though.

Here's one for the EMM that I found quite amusing:

If God listened to the prayers of men, all men would quickly have perished: for they are forever praying for evil against one another.

Although I think it's a misquote, unless it's aimed at Jews or Zoroaster, since the major monotheistic religions appeared well after his death.

[Ancient Aliens]

Although I think it's a misquote, unless it's aimed at Jews or Zoroaster, since the major monotheistic religions appeared well after his death.

Nah. All Epicurus quotes (including the problem of evil itself) originally used the plural "Gods". In the modern era, we have chopped of the "s", but his quotes still seem to apply.

Because Abrahamic religions teach ideas contrary to his statement, as Philip said. Good works are encouraged and actually mandated to a point, but they aren't a requirement to get into Heaven, at least from a Christian perspective.

Also Marcus Aurelius was around a bit before Christianity became prominent, so I don't imagine he was familiar with the same concept of God as we do. But I might be wrong.....

Judaism was prevalent (and in fact more widespread than it is today) as was Zoroastrianism during Marcus Aurelius' time. And I think his quote is perfectly applicable to modern religion.

[Cooraan]

Judaism was prevalent (and in fact more widespread than it is today) as was Zoroastrianism during Marcus Aurelius' time.

Did Aurelius study it though? He said "gods" so I doubt he was referring to monotheistic religions.

And I think his quote is perfectly applicable to modern religion.

Except when talking about Christianity. It teaches that we should do good acts, but they are not the deciding factor.

[Ancient Aliens]

Did Aurelius study it though? He said "gods" so I doubt he was referring to monotheistic religions.

Caesar himself was actually well liked by the Jews, and they held a seperate Jewish funeral after his passing. Claudius actually studied Judaism and passed legislation that helped further Romanize the Jews, and was well liked by them. The Roman Emperors were well acquainted with the Jewish people and it's religion.

Aurelius mentions the word "gods" here not because he misunderstood Monotheism, he mentioned "gods" because he was refering to multiple gods, and because Polytheism was predominate at the time.

Except when talking about Christianity. It teach good actions, while good, but they are not the deciding factor.

If the foundation of your religion is moral (which it is), and doing "good deeds" isn't the deciding factor regarding the reception of salvation, then your religion is hypocritical, and "evil". If, for example, an African man who lived a "pious, good" life according to your standards but had never heard about Jesus or Yahweh received eternal damnation for his failure to accept Christianity, then your god is not "pious" or "good". Your god would be "evil", and would be undeserving of worship. This is exactly the point that Marcus Aurelius was trying to get across.

[Cooraan]

Caesar himself was actually well liked by the Jews, and they held a seperate Jewish funeral after his passing. Claudius actually studied Judaism and passed legislation that helped further Romanize the Jews, and was well liked by them. The Roman Emperors were well acquainted with the Jewish people and it's religion.

Aurelius mentions the word "gods" here not because he misunderstood Monotheism, he mentioned "gods" because he was refering to multiple gods, and because Polytheism was predominate at the time.

Hmm quite interesting I was not aware of any of that.

If the foundation of your religion is moral (which it is), and doing "good deeds" isn't the deciding factor regarding the reception of salvation, then your religion is hypocritical, and "evil". If, for example, an African man who lived a "pious, good" life according to your standards but had never heard about Jesus or Yahweh received eternal damnation for his failure to accept Christianity, then your god is not "pious" or "good". Your god would be "evil", and would be undeserving of worship. This is exactly the point that Marcus Aurelius was trying to get across.

Well good deeds aren't the deciding factor, faith in God is. And when talking about the situation you described, which the Apostle Paul talks about in Romans. He said that when the law is not known sin is not taken into account, and then they are accountable to the "laws" of their conscience. Which Paul believed God gave to every man. So yes, I guess the quote is quite applicable.

[Dihnekhs]

"Be a leader amongst equals amongst the hellenic people and a harsh ruler above the rest amongst the barbarians" Aristotle told the young alexander
Alexander did not follow this and that is why many hellens who were not happy with kneeling and considering their king as a god were executed by alexander including cleitus the black who had saved alexander's life at granicus who was killed by alexander himself!!

[Cooraan]

why isn't this more widespread? Do people not understand his reasoning?

Because Abrahamic religions teach ideas contrary to his statement, as Philip said. Good works are encouraged and actually mandated to a point, but they aren't a requirement to get into Heaven, at least from a Christian perspective.

Also Marcus Aurelius was around a bit before Christianity became prominent, so I don't imagine he was familiar with the same concept of God as we do. But I might be wrong.....

[Hilarion]

What do you mean by "widespread," it's a popular quote that lots of people, myself included, are familiar with. There are literally thousands of great quotes that receive far less attention. As far as pagan philosophers go he is definitely up there among the best, and frankly I prefer Stoicism to most other pagan philosophies.

[Justice and Mercy]

It's a confession of second-handedness.

I'm not a fan of Marcus Aurelius. Indeed, I don't like that entire ethical flavor, which can also be seen in Kant. The "goodness is it's own reward" kind.

[SigniferOne]

"Nature has imposed on the minds of all people the idea of God"

"Atheism is evil"
-Cicero

I think these also could be argued to be the best quotes from antiquity.

[Ancient Aliens]

"Nature has imposed on the minds of all people the idea of God"

"Atheism is evil"
-Cicero

I think these also could be argued to be the best quotes from antiquity.

That's not flamebaiting...

[Himster]

That's not flamebaiting...

You misspelt childish.

[SigniferOne]

That's not flamebaiting...

Why? Have you read Cicero? He and all of the great classical philosophers really dig into moral status of Epicurus and the system he devised.

So if we're offering 'favorite quotes from antiquity', and if the OP is one of the rare quotes containing the idea of '... if gods exist', then surely I can propose the work from classical philosophers which argues that the idea of a single God is inescapable to every single human being living on earth. All's fair

[Ancient Aliens]

Why? Have you read Cicero? He and all of the great classical philosophers really dig into moral status of Epicurus and the system he devised.

So if we're offering 'favorite quotes from antiquity', and if the OP is one of the rare quotes containing the idea of '... if gods exist', then surely I can propose the work from classical philosophers which argues that the idea of a single God is inescapable to every single human being living on earth. All's fair

Yes, I've read and greatly appreciate Cicero. That being said, "Atheism is evil" isn't a fabulously cerebral quote, nor does it do Cicero justice; it's three, non-contextual words that anyone could spit out.

You also forget that while Cicero was considered by the Catholic Church to be a "Virtuous Pagan", he was still a polytheist, and he would argue with you just as readily as he would argue with me. He would consider you to be an evil atheist for rejecting the multitude of Pantheons that you disregard, too.

[SigniferOne]

he was still a polytheist

That would take us into a separate conversation, which I find little significance in as pertains to the current topic, but I would not entirely agree with you there. None of the classical philosophers believed and accepted the Olympian gods in the plain sense of the word; they may have culturally repeated it, but their works are filled with reference to some single, immanent essence that underlay the world.

He would consider you to be an evil atheist for rejecting the multitude of Pantheons that you disregard, too.

Not at all. You can find the monotheistic God in Plato, Aristotle, and pretty much in all classical philosophers of antiquity; certainly in the Stoics who were a great example of this (Seneca, the "non-Christian Christian"), etc. You need to distinguish between the philosophers and the more regular people and officials, who indeed would agree with you. Christianity, however, is in many ways the culmination of classical philosophy.

[Gordon Freynman]

"Atheism is evil"
-Cicero

Ah yes, when I think of the best quotes from antiquity, I think of 3 word one liners that anyone could crap out with zero thought.

[Arvedui01]

"Atheism is evil"
-Cicero

I think these also could be argued to be the best quotes from antiquity.

No, you came to contradict my quote with a three liner. At least I bothered to include Marcus Aurelius' reasoning.

And in regard to the quote's relationship to Christianity- what Aliens said precisely. God shouldn't be regarded as righteous (shouldn't be worshipped,) if he allows a person of low moral stance who does have faith to reap the reward of heaven, where a person of higher moral stance that lacks faith or devotion falls to hell.

[Jom]

"Nature has imposed on the minds of all people the idea of God"

"Atheism is evil"
-Cicero

I think these also could be argued to be the best quotes from antiquity.

Why? Have you read Cicero? He and all of the great classical philosophers really dig into moral status of Epicurus and the system he devised.

So if we're offering 'favorite quotes from antiquity', and if the OP is one of the rare quotes containing the idea of '... if gods exist', then surely I can propose the work from classical philosophers which argues that the idea of a single God is inescapable to every single human being living on earth. All's fair

I have a good one for you Sig, especially as you seem to have so much esteem for Cicero, and by your own admission above, Cicero also held Epicurus in high regard.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus

[Boustrophedon]

"Nature has imposed on the minds of all people the idea of God"

"Atheism is evil"
-Cicero

I think these also could be argued to be the best quotes from antiquity.

I find it strange that you have brought so much progress regarding modding TW games and yet you hold such backwards ideas. Whenever I see you post in the modding sections I'm in awe, whenever you post in debates such as this you scare me. But for the sake of argumenting let's discuss your quote:

"Atheism is evil."

First of all, Cicero's concept of atheism is not even remotely the same as the modern concept of atheism. Atheists are rarely just non-believers. They place value in the process of evidence, counter-evidence and conclusion.

Second of all, what exactly is "evil" about it? Is it perhaps evil in the same sense as the Gauls and their druidism were "evil" and occupied with "evil forces of nature"? I also find it funny that Cicero should say this considering he broke a few religious laws in his life. So much for doing as you preach...

Third of all, time frame is key here. This was written over 2,000 years ago and much has changed since then. Sadly the retoric of the religious people has not changed one bit. "ATHEISM IS EVIL!! TO HELL WITH THEM!!" blablabla...