MOS recruitment balance

[Hero of the West]

Right now for MOS we are remaking the recruitment times.. but we don't know exactly what we want

option A:

1 turn: militia
2 turn: midtier
3 turn: high tier
4 turn: elite (mountain trolls, snow trolls, fountainguards)
5 turn: exceptional (black numenoreans, mumakil, ologhai)

for elven archers the militia would also take 2 turns..

option B:
1 turn: militia and part midtier
2 turn: mid tier and part high tier
3: high tier (like elven archers) and elite
4: exceptional

option C:
all units still recruitable in 1 turn but with certain exceptions for 2 turns (elite and exceptional)

Keep in mind that making recruittimes longer will decrease the stackspam a bit and limits the number of stronger untis (like trolls) in a stack..

Also the game will be harder and you will have to make more strategic choices when recruiting yourselve

[Ngugi]

- Option A & B would at the same time decrease retraining capacity, right? (though option B is perhaps most in my taste overall)
- What is exceptional units? Mûmakils?
- Is C the current?

[Khales]

Option A for me. I like to fight all fights. But the more stackspawns there are to fight the more i tend to autoresolve. And that decreases my motivation! Fighting endless stacks just doesn´t feel epic for me.

I prefer having some important fights for settlements/positions. And if i win i´d like to mark this done in my mind and defend this position and/or move on to expand further/help allies.

But what i´d like to see beside that would be some sneaky attacks which i can´t see coming. Random 4-6-unit armies (from nearby hostile factions) that appear near key settlements e.g.

That would increase the thrillfactor for me more than fighting nonstop stupid ai-stacks.

[martyran]

I think Option A
As it makes the more elete units more valuable and if you know its going to take 5 turns to get one you are going to look after it

Orcs and uruk Hai faster turn because of the way they come into exsistance
elves a lot slower as they are leaving
dwarves a bit slower..I dont think they are fast breaders either

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

I Would Say Option B but im with Martyran in that one Uruks-Hai Elite should take less than any other elites in Middle-Earth and the Orc to breed more faster just feel that feeling the Sauron is winning the War and that Gondor is having a bad time at Osgiliath and Cair Andros . ( Of Course not to make Mordor and extreme advantage because i would hate to see gondor lose Minas Tirith by turn 30 that would suck.)

As For the Elven armies yeah they should take Long since they are leaving Middle-Earth so 4 turns would be Ok. 5 turns is and eternity you would get bored before u can have them since u still gotta wait for turn 30 and 60 to have all elites units.

[Sua Sponte]

Alas... I'm still a non voting member.

My unofficial vote would be for option B. I'm too inpatient to wait any longer, but I don't think you should be able to get top of the line units in 2 or less turns.

[Keyser_Soze]

If you change recruitment time, will you speed up the time it takes for more to become available, especially for exceptional units? 15+ turns is fine when it takes a turn, but seems to be a bit of a joke when it takes 4 turns?

[Khales]

I think it´s not just about how long you have to wait for your elite units. I think you should see this poll more from the ai-prespective. The faster the recruitment, the more armies and fullstacks you´ll have to face

[Keyser_Soze]

I think it´s not just about how long you have to wait for your elite units. I think you should see this poll more from the ai-prespective. The faster the recruitment, the more armies and fullstacks you´ll have to face

Yes, but it'll inevitably have an impact on your gameplay. I find much of the stackspam is simply militia-level units, but the sheer volume of them will eventually break you. Of course, this is my experience as Eriador against OOG, who are, before trolls and halberds are unlocked, very weak, and easily routed by sustained cavalry attacks. I'm less experienced with Mordor, but in early-game as SE and Gondor, I have memories of stackspam with Mumakil, so I am inclined to agree.

[Sua Sponte]

I think it´s not just about how long you have to wait for your elite units. I think you should see this poll more from the ai-prespective. The faster the recruitment, the more armies and fullstacks you´ll have to face

Yes, I suppose that is a good point. It does get monotonous fighting stack after stack after stack. I do prefer a handful of epic battles with the ability to actually make progress in a campaign.

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

Still Im With Option B 5 turns is to depresive to wait for a Olog-Hai and then i have to wait 15+ Turns to have another =[

[Liodenz]

I'm with option A, in recent campaigns i've seen factions that they just sit idle and produce many many stacks. Just make sure bad guys have an advantage in the recruitment times.

[David93]

option a mate

[Ciloron]

B

[Eldain]

A would be great if plyer will be able to retrain units from all tiers in 1 turn always

[David93]

no mater what you put the origional recruitment time, all units are re-trained in one turn.

[Eldain]

no mater what you put the origional recruitment time, all units are re-trained in one turn.

I was thinking about possibility to re-train all types of unit every turn not to wait until you are able to recruit them

[Pleiades]

Also the game will be harder and you will have to make more strategic choices when recruiting yourselve

At least OoMM and some other factions will not have more strategic choices troubles. They already have one and only one choice - to build militia until turn 100 because their towns are very small in size with extreme slow rise of population., so no possibility to buy advance barracks.

Although I voted, I believe that rise of population and carefully study of each faction income and expenditures from human player point of view is greater priority, because chicken is older than egg - trust me!

PB had so many headaches with RR/RC to balance TATW campaign map, because it is enough to reduce/raise king's purse by only 250gold in one faction and balance is ruined sharply. (I am not modder, but I was contributing to him as player and was giving to him results of my observations and tests which he used for economy modifications in little patches.)

[Trailhog250]

Yes me and Hero have been trying to decide how to do this and a poll is the perfect way

Here is my FIRST draft of the recruitment times subject to change. It's rather similar to Option A actually.

I might as well post it for the public to see the whole changelog

The most likely changes will PROBABLY be to Mumakil, Elves, and that will probably be it. But there may be more.

Trailhog250's Changelog for Recruitment times

First, I list the faction, then the unit, then the time changed. (eg '1 - 2' means that unit's default build time was 1 turn and it was changed to 2 turns. Then a 'break' is included (eg '-----') for being easier to read. At the end of each faction's units I provide a small 'summary' so you don't have to read tediously through everything. More or less I make this JUST for the sake of having a changelog and being able to recall changes if need be. ===== Gondor: ===== Axemen of Loss. 1 - 2 ----- Gondor Mil. 1 - 1 ----- Pelargir Marines 1 - 2 ----- Gondor Infantry 1 - 3 ----- Dis. Swan Kni. 2 - 4 ----- Gondor Spearmen 1 - 3 ----- Kingsguard 1 - 3 ----- Fountain Guard 2 - 4 ----- Gondor Wardens 2 - 4 ----- Militia A. 1 - 1 ----- Blackroot Vale A. 1 - 2 ----- Gondor Archers 1 - 3 ----- Ithilien R. 1 - 4 ----- Dol Am. Guard. 1 - 2 ----- Dol Amroth Men-at-arms 1 - 2 ----- Dol Amroth Marines 1 - 2 ----- Dol Amroth Pikemen 1 - 2 ----- Dol Amroth Archer 1 - 2 ----- Dol Amroth Squires 1 - 2 ----- Cavalry Militia 1 - 1 ----- Gondor Cavalry 1 - 3 ----- Swan Knights 2 - 4 ----- Loss. Nobles 1 - 3 ----- Gondor Guardsmen 1 - 2 ----- Yeoman Archers 1 - 1 ----- Scouts 1 - 1 ----- Osg. Veterans 1 - 3 ----- Knights of M.T. 1 - 4 ----- Winged Sword. 2 - 4 ----- Minas Ithil Guard 1 - 3 ----- Loss Axeguard 1 - 2 ----- Loss Riders 1 - 2 ----------= Overall a nice diverse roster, the weaker miltita take only 1 turn for fast defense and the more advanced (though not elite) Lossarnarch and Dol Amroth troops require 2 turns to train. And, the better units such as their basic Gondor units take 3 turns. Whereas elites such as Swan Knights and Fountain Guards take 4 turns to train. ----------= ===== Rohan: ===== Militia 1 - 1 ----- Rohan Axemen 1 - 1 ----- Dismounted Eored Lancers 1 - 3 ----- Riddermark Axemen 1 - 2 ----- Eorling Swordsmen 1 - 2 ----- Dismounted Royal Guard 1 - 4 ----- Eorling Archers 1 - 1 ----- Helmingas 1 - 3 ----- Rohan Scouts 1 - 1 ----- Rohan Riders 1 - 2 ----- Rohan Horsearchers 1 - 2 ----- Rohan Heavy Horsearchers 1 - 3 ----- ===== NOTE: It's possible one of these does NOT exist... But I changed it anyway. I don't recall seeing it but..... ===== Eored Skirmishers 1 - 3 ----- Eored Lancers 1 - 3 ----- Royal Guard 1 - 4 ----------= A good diverse roster, weaker units require 1 turn but are not very good at all... Some AOR units take 2-3 turns. Some more advanced but still basic units such as Swordsmen and Rohan Riders take 2 turns. And getting on up to Eored Lancers/Skirmishers they take 3 turns. Royal Guard take 4. Good and diverse I think. ----------= ===== High Elves: ===== Light Elven Archers 1 - 3 ----- Elven Archers 1 - 4 ----- Eldar Archers 2 - 5 ----- Elven Infantry 1 - 3 ----- Eldar Spearmen 1 - 5 ----- Eldar Swordsmen 1 - 5 ----- Warriors of Mithlond 1 - 6 ----- Eldar Cavalry 1 - 5 ----- Smiths of Eregion 2 - 3 ----- Eldar Guardians 1 - 5 ----- Rivendell Spearmen (?) 1 - 6 ----------= Overall a few AOR units spice things up. Their most basic unit will now take 3 turns to train. Their 'core' archer (Elven Archers) take 4 turns. Eldar tier units take 5 turns. Mithlond and Rivendell Spearmen (do they exist?) take 6 turns. ----------= ===== Silvan Elves: ===== Lorien Archer 1 - 3 ----- Lorien Spearmen 1 - 3 ----- Lorien Ranger 1 - 3 ----- Sent. of Woodlan Realm 1 - 4 ----- Mirkwood Rangers 1 - 3 ----- Galad. H. Swordsmen 1 - 5 ----- Galad H. Spearmen 1 - 5 ----- Galad H. Archers 1 - 5 ----- Silvan Spearmen 1 - 3 ----- Forest Wardens 1 - 3 ----- Silvan Heavy Spearmen 1 - 5 ----- Silvan Heavy Swordsmen 1 - 5 ----- Silvan Horsearchers 1 - 3 ----- Mirkwood Light Axmen 1 - 2 ----- Mirkwood Nobles 1 - 4 ----------= Similiar to HE... Except their roster is mostly 3-turn units. Eldar Counter-parts take 5 turns. AOR units are similiar to their vanilla counterpart (3-turns). ----------= ===== Dwarves: ===== Miners 1 - 1 ----- Halberd 1 - 2 ----- Warriors 1 - 2 ---- Clan Warriors (No idea what this is...) 1 - 2 ----- Pikemen 1 - 2 ----- Iron Guard 1 - 4 ----- Crossbow 1 - 3 ----- Axethrowers 1 - 2 ----- Axemen of Erebor 1 - 3 ----- Dragon Slayers 1 - 3 ----- Khazad Guard 1 - 5 ----------= Miners are avaliable in 1 turn. Warriors, Axethrowers, Pikemen, Halberd, etc take 2 turns. Dragon Slayers take 3. Iron Guard take 4. And last but not least, the Khazad Guard take 5 turns. ----------= ===== Dale: ===== Axemen 1 - 1 (not used?) ----- Spearmen 1 - 1 (not used?) ----- Hearth Watchmen 1 - 1 ----- Rivermen 1 - 2 ----- Dalesmen 1 - 1 ----- Dale Swordsmen 1 - 2 ----- Rhovanion (unit? lol Not sure what this is...) 1 - 2 ----- Barding Hird 1 - 3 ----- Swordmasters 1 - 4 ----- Dismounted Earls 1 - 3 ----- Rivermen (Woodsmen?) 1 - 1 ----- Longbowmen 1 - 2 ----- Bardian Archers 1 - 3 ----- Athala Rangers 1 - 3 ----- Yeomen 1 - 1 ----- Horseguards 1 - 4 ----- Earls 1 - 3 ----------= Plenty of weaker units that are ready in 1 turn. Some 'elite' units ready in 2. Some better ones ready in 3 (eg Athala Rangers). And their best such as Swordmasters ready in 4. ----------= ===== Eriador: ===== Militia 1 - 1 ----- Hobbittry in arms 1 - 1 ----- Lumbermen 1 - 2 ----- Bandits 1 - 1 ----- Greenway Sentries 1 - 3 ----- Merchant Militia 1 - 2 ----- Battle Ready Dunedain 1 - 4 ----- Archer Militia 1 - 1 ----- Hobbit Archers 1 - 1 ----- Bandobras Archers 1 - 2 ----- Woodland Hunters 1 - 2 ----- Dunedaun Rangers 1 - 4 ----- Greenway Guards 1 - 3 ----- Merchants 1 - 2 ----- Mounted Dunedain 1 - 4 ----------= Good and balanced... Dunedain units take 4 turns. Greenway Guards take 3. Merchants, Hunters, Lumbermen, Bandorbras Archers, etc take 2. And the rest take 1. ----------= ===== Arnor: ===== Militia 1 - 1 ----- Archers 1 - 1 ----- Heavy Archers 1 - 3 ----- Arnor Men-at-arms 1 - 2 ----- Arnor Pikemen 1 - 3 ----- Dismounted Dunedain Knights 1 - 4 ----- Seargeants 1 - 2 ----- Arnor Knights 1 - 3 ----- Knights of Annuminas 1 - 4 ----------= Similiar to Gondor's and Eriador's roster sort of put together... Basic militia take 1 turn. Seargents/MAA take 2. And the better units such as Pikemen take 3. Dunedain/Annuminas units take 4. ----------= ===== Rhun: ===== Balchoth Clansmen 1 - 1 ----- Clansmen 1 - 1 ----- Rhun Swordsmen 1 - 2 ----- Halberdiers 1 - 2 ----- Pikemen (?) 1 - 2 ----- Rhun Elite Infantry 1 - 3 ----- Easterling Archers 1 - 1 ----- Rhun Crossbowmen 1 - 2 ----- Dis. Variags 1 - 2 ----- Rhun Elite Archers 1 - 3 ----- Variag Raiders 1 - 2 ----- Mounted Clanguard 1 - 2 ----- Kataphracts 1 - 4 ----------= Balanced, basic clansmen take 1 turn. Some more 'advanced' units take 2. And their 'Dragon' regiments take 3. ----------= ===== Mordor: ===== Orc Band 1 - 1 ----- Orc Raiders 1 - 1 ----- 2handed Orcs 1 - 2 ----- Morannon Guard 1 - 2 ----- Uruks 1 - 3 ----- Halberd 1 - 3 ----- Scouts 1 - 1 ----- Archers 1 - 1 ----- Uruk Achers 1 - 3 ----- Mountain Trolls 1 - 5 ----- Olag-hai 1 - 6 ----- Dismounted Black Numenoreans 1 - 5 ----------= Basic 'meatgrinder' units take 1 turn. Their middle 'tier' units take 2 turns. Uruks take 3. M. trolls take 5 and A. Trolls take 6. ----------= ===== Isengard: ===== Dunlendings 1 - 1 ----- Uruk-Hai Raiders 1 - 2 ----- Uruk Cleavers 1 - 2 ----- Uruk-Hai Pikemen 1 - 3 ----- Uruk-Hai Infantry 1 - 3 ----- Orthanc Guard 1 - 4 ----- Berserkers 1 - 4 ----- Uruk-Hai Archers 1 - 2 ----- Uruk-Hai Crossbow 1 - 3 ----- Wargs 1 - 2 ----------= Dunlanders take 1 turn. Uruk 'rookies' take 2 turns. Uruk 'elites' take 3. And berserkers/O. Guard take 4. ----------= ===== Harad: ===== Desert Spearmen (Harad Separmen?) 1 - 1 ----- Corsairs 1 - 2 ----- Southron Spearmen 1 - 2 ----- Southron Pikemen 1 - 2 ----- Beastmaster 1 - 2 ----- Hasharii 1 - 3 ----- Half Men 1 - 3 ----- Dismounted Searpent Guard 1 - 4 ----- Harad Archers 1 - 1 ----- Corsair Archers 1 - 2 ----- Southron Archers 1 - 2 ----- Southron Lancers 1 - 2 ----- Raider Cavalry 1 - 2 ----- Beastmaster Cav 1 - 2 ----- Serpent Guard 1 - 4 ----- Mumakil 1 - 8 ----------= Basic Harad units take 1 turn, Southron units take 2. Serpent Guard take 4. And Mumakil take 8. (You don't have them ready to fight instantly. I think this is a vital balance change.) ----------= ===== OoTMM: ===== Snage Skirmishers 1 - 1 ----- Goblin Orcs (Gobling Infantry?) 1 - 1 ----- Heavy Goblin Infantry 1 - 2 ----- Goblin Halberd 1 - 2 ----- Snaga Archers 1 - 1 ----- Goblin Archers 1 - 1 ----- Moria Archers 1 - 2 ----- Cave Trolls 1 - 4 ----- Wargs 1 - 2 ----------= Snagas take 1 turn, Heavy Goblin units take 2. Cave trolls take 4. ----------= ===== OoGB: ===== Snaga Band 1 - 1 ----- Goblin Spears 1 - 1 ----- Orc Fellers 1 - 2 ----- Orc Halberd 1 - 2 ----- Heavy Orcs 1 - 2 ----- Hillmen 1 - 1 ----- Rhudar Axemen 1 - 1 ----- Rhudar Scouts 1 - 1 ----- Goblin Trackers 1 - 1 ----- Snow Trolls 1 - 5 ----------= Basic Snagas take 1 turn, better orcs take 2, Rhudar units take 1, Snow Trolls take 5. ----------= ===== Ships: ===== Corsair Pirate Ship 1 - 2 ----- Caravel 1 - 2 ----------= ----------= ===== Siege Engines: ===== All Ballistas take 2 turns to build. All Catapults take 3 turns to build. All Trebuchets take 4 turns to build. ----- ***** Bonuses: ***** Isengard Ballistas build in 1 turn instead of 2. ALL Dwarf Siege Engines build 1 turn sooner. (Not Rams or anything, but Catapults etc.) Mordor Catapults build in 2 turns instead of 3. Gondor and Arnor Trebuchets build in 3 turns instead of 4. ----------= ----------= ===== AUM: ===== Silvan Shieldbearers 1 - 5 ----- Arnor Infantry 1 - 3 ----- Hollowsteel Marksmen 1 - 4 ----- Arnor Spearmen 1 - 3 ----- Dismounted Arnor Knights 1 - 4 ----- All Lôke units take 3 turns. (Includes Easterling Cavalry) ----- Royal Kinsmen (Includes both on foot and on horser) 1 - 3 ----------= ----------= ===== Dunland: ===== Clansmen 1 - 1 ----- Tribal Axemen 1 - 1 ----- Dunland Spearmen 1 - 2 ----- Dunland Berserkers 1 - 3 ----- Pikemen 2 - 3 ----- Noble Swordsmen 2 - 3 ----- Huntsmen 1 - 1 ----- Hunters 1 - 1 ----- Isenmach Axemen 3 - 4 ----- Dunland Horsemen 2 - 2 ----- Isenmach Raiders 3 - 3 ----- Dunhird Champions 3 - 4 ----------= Basic clansmen take 1 turn. Better experienced and equipped units take 3. Some elites take 4. ----------= ** Dunedain Beastslayers 2 - 5 ------ All Pelargir Units take 2 turns. ----- .......... .......... .......... One can argue why some factions can recruit better units quicker than others. Well this is RR/RC... I took into account the factions' means as well. Such as likely available smiths, coordination, etc.

Trailhog250's Changelog for various fixes and additions due in 6.14

Bug Fixes: Orcs of Gundabad's Orc Halberdier is given the 'Spear-Wall' ability which it lacked. (Other Halberdiers have it namely OoTMM's 'Orc Halberdier') Snow Trolls given shield stat of '1'. Knights of Minas Tirith given shield stat of '6'. Arnor Knights and Sergeants given a shield stat of '4'. I added all pelargir units to the Pelargir Roster for use on campaign. Though they need to be balanced. Black Numenoreans added for Mordor in Minas Morgul, and Royal Kinsmen for Rohan in Edoras.

Me personally, I think the Elves should suffer from extra long recruitment times because that is supposed to be one of their weaknesses and I feel that point was never gotten across good. But, we'll let the results decide in the end

[Hero of the West]

In 6 hours i will collect the choices and start implementing the chosen version as a test for the next release