What to do with the Byzantine Empire?

[KostasHBK]

Although I play Medieval 2 for quite a long time I'm having some trouble to win. It's not that I am not a good TW player. In the matter of fact I play Rome TW for a long time and I consider myself a good player. I have no problem to win online or offline battles on any difficulty. The main problem with M2 is that I don't know what units are good against what. My favorite faction is The Byzantine Empire. When I play Campaign I am successful for the first 50-100 rounds but then I start losing a lot of battles and sieges, mainly sieges. So I want to know what units of the Byzantine Empire are good against what English units for example on each period.

[ChivalrousKiller]

Hello KostasHBK, and welcome to the forums! I have a lot of experience from playing as the Byzantine Empire, which is probably my favorite faction as well

In my opinion. Byzantium has the best missile cavalry in the game, so they are to be used a lot. I would use them along with Byzantine Spearmen against other cavalry-dependent factions, such as Hungary and the Turks. That is your key to pushing north and east. Then there is Venice and Sicily, as Italian factions they have extremely good infantry and heavy armor, but are completely lacking in cavalry (except for the Norman Knights). Because of this, you should be able to pick them apart with the missile cavalry quite easily.

If you're talking of English units specifically, Byzantine missile cavalry can beat almost every English unit except for the archers. England is the best archer faction by far, especially when they're spamming lomgbowmen. So to beat England, you would need a lot of cavalry. Heavy cavalry (like Latinkon) to take out the archers, and then missile cavalry to take out the other units when the archers are dead or have routed.

When it comes to sieges, the Empire has a major disadvantage because they're so lacking in infantry. They have one single unit which can match every heavy infantry unit in the game, and that is the Varangian Guard. The Varangians are perfect for sieges, but sadly they are quite expensive and you can recruit only a small number of them. So for most of the game your armies will depend on the other heavy infantry units, which are mostly Dismounted cavalry (Dismounted Latinkon, Dismounted Byzantine Lancers...). To back up those units in a siege, you'll also need archers. Trebizond Archers are both cheap and very available, and you'll also have access to Byzantine Guard Archers. You could also add mercenaries to your besieging army (Slav Mercenaries, Balkan Archers, Bulgarian Brigands...).

Another disadvantage in sieges is that Byzantium has few gunpowder units compared to other factions, so you may find yourself dependent on Trebuchets and Ballistas where your enemy has cannons..

Hope this will help a bit!

[KostasHBK]

Thank you for the tips, they are very helpful. I use the missile cavalry in most of my battles and they are very useful. But when it comes to sieges they are pretty muck useless. When I face an army on an open field I try to surround them, shoot them and when they're in combat with my infantry charge them with my cavalry, including the missile. That way I usually win clear victories with small losses. But I loss half my men in a siege battle. What if I use more artillery to bring down as much of walls and the towers and avoid a conflict on the walls with ladders and siege towers? And also, what army to chose if I play online and my opponent chose an army based in numbers and heavy cavalry and spearmen with no updates? The missile units wouldn't be ineffective against the heavy cav? In that case should I try to counter the cavalry with cavalry or try to defend with a large force of heavy infantry like the Varangian guard?

[Kine]

What if I use more artillery to bring down as much of walls and the towers and avoid a conflict on the walls with ladders and siege towers?

An artillery barrage is best when assaulting but the repair bill can be costly esp when using less accurate siege engines.

what army to chose if I play online and my opponent chose an army based in numbers and heavy cavalry and spearmen with no updates?

Heavy Infantry and Horse Archers is the perfect counter. With an emphasis on Infantries over the Horses. and Quality > Quantity.

The missile units wouldn't be ineffective against the heavy cav?

Your cavalry can outrun his. Drawing his horses away from the main battle is worth more than the meagre kills you'd make from your mounted bows. Once they run out of ammo, suicide into the rear of his remaining footmen and let your heavies deal with his horses. Split his focus up and win the micro-management battle.

[KostasHBK]

Thank you very much Kine. This is very helpful.

[XSHEAFFEYX]

In my opinion. Byzantium has the best missile cavalry in the game,

I agree - im new to M2tw, and the Byzies are my favorite faction, but seeming as the Turks, Venitians and the Hungarians keep forming a big coalition against me in the first few turns (those bastards ) I usually have two or more full stacks of just missile cavalry patrolling my borders because, even when the are outnumbered, they can anhilate the enemy by surrounding and decimating them .

[Gazz]

But isn't the Varangian Guard and other 2handers completely useless, due to the bugged animation?

[danny X]

But isn't the Varangian Guard and other 2handers completely useless, due to the bugged animation?

i expect any mod that runs through kingdoms to have corrected it!

[ChivalrousKiller]

Yeah, you're both right. I forgot to mention that, since I always play the Retrofit Mod

[Silverheart]

To defend in sieges effectively with Byzantines you need:

For cities: Archer Militia and Byzantine Infantry on the walls + Varangian Guard with support of lots and lots of Spear Militia to defend the gate + Ballista towers (upgrade to Cannon towers after Timurid invasion to keep up with the technological development)

For castles: Byzantine Guard Archers and Dismounted Latinkon/Dismounted Byzantine Lancers on the walls + Dismounted Latinkon/Dismounted Byzantine Lancers with support of lots and lots of Byzantine Spearmen to defend the gate + Vardariotai and Byzantine Lancers/Latinkon to ride outside at the start of the battle to harass and disrupt the enemy from the flanks and rear as they advance + Ballista towers (upgrade to Cannon towers after Timurid invasion to keep up with the technological development)

That should do it.
Also, in Fortresses/Citadels I suggest you learn when to stand and fight and when to retreat to the next level. Retreating deeper into the castle gives your archers more time in which they can pepper the enemy as they advances through the streets. Don´t be afraid to sacrifice a unit of spearmen if needed to buy the archers the time they need to retreat.
If you have only a small or moderate garrison facing a hugely superior enemy, this is vital to success.

[Silverheart]

I´m not sure I understand the question:
Do you want tips for assaulting settlements or defending them?

[KostasHBK]

What you're giving me so far is exactly what I asked for. Both you and ChivalrousKiller have help me a lot.

[ChivalrousKiller]

One is glad to be of assistance

[Shamefur Dispray]

enjoy your pink army

[Huskerjuan]

For me, the most valuable unit in Byzantium's arsenal are their Guard Archers. Superb range and missile damage, and they are strong enough in melee to hold their own until a support unit arrives, and more often than not they will rout enemies trying to scale the walls all on their own. Also, I rarely use entirely missile cav armies. Most of the time I concentrate my forces on the guard archers, with some Heavy Infantry/spearmen for support, and 4 maybe 5 units of missile cavalry. I play with the unit count at the max, which in vanilla maxes the archer units at 120 and the cavalry units at 80. I have found that the 40 extra missiles per volley and larger quiver is a greater advantage than the mobility that mass missile cavalry provides.

That said, because of the Byzantines depression of descent infantry until later in the game, effective deployment of these units are essential. Vardariotai are fantastic cavalry units both as a missile units and a melee unit, and their early availability allows you plenty of time to work up their chevrons and create a really crack unit. You should never go into battle without one of these units. However as the game progresses and the AI starts developing stronger armies (Italian spear/Xbow stacks, Mongols, etc) it is much more difficult to rely solely on the prowess of your missile cavalry.

[13lackGu4rd]

For me, the most valuable unit in Byzantium's arsenal are their Guard Archers. Superb range and missile damage, and they are strong enough in melee to hold their own until a support unit arrives, and more often than not they will rout enemies trying to scale the walls all on their own. Also, I rarely use entirely missile cav armies. Most of the time I concentrate my forces on the guard archers, with some Heavy Infantry/spearmen for support, and 4 maybe 5 units of missile cavalry. I play with the unit count at the max, which in vanilla maxes the archer units at 120 and the cavalry units at 80. I have found that the 40 extra missiles per volley and larger quiver is a greater advantage than the mobility that mass missile cavalry provides.

That said, because of the Byzantines depression of descent infantry until later in the game, effective deployment of these units are essential. Vardariotai are fantastic cavalry units both as a missile units and a melee unit, and their early availability allows you plenty of time to work up their chevrons and create a really crack unit. You should never go into battle without one of these units. However as the game progresses and the AI starts developing stronger armies (Italian spear/Xbow stacks, Mongols, etc) it is much more difficult to rely solely on the prowess of your missile cavalry.

what I don't understand is why waste the major advantage of the Byzantines over other factions(superb cavalry, both missile and melee) and instead rely on their moderate infantry and archers, which many other factions do a lot better. like in every strategy game, enhancing your strengths and covering your weaknesses are the 2 most important things. instead you choose to weaken your strengths while opening up new weaknesses(a archer+infantry heavy army is very vulnerable to the very things the Byzantines excel at, melee and missile cavalry).

[FootSoldier]

Imho the Byz infantry is the equal of the other factions ... tho' I like them for the cavalry. Since Kostas was asking about seige assault armies from turn 50+ the unit I'd recommend in particular is the DBL (Dismounted Byzantine Lancers).

I've included a screenshot to demonstrate. This is M2TW Gold, vanilla. I think the DBL's base level is attack 11/defence 18. However, they armour up to 8, and with swordsmith's guild and master armourer at experience 7 (gold), they will be attack 15/defence 24. The screenshot shows experience 4 (silver), trained with a swordsmith's guild, and master armourer - 14/23. I have regularly defeated DFK's with them.

(Ok, I'm obsessive about the swordsmith's guild, and I get them for all my castles With the Byz I often get them for cities too, since the Byz Inf will trigger this guild if produced in enough numbers)

From turn 50 the DBL's should be supported by Byz Infantry. By turn 100 you should be getting Varangian Guard ... Dismounted Latinkon at a pinch, but I've never really needed this unit when playing the Byz.

The DBL's should form part of Byz infantry armies as soon as they are available. Likewise the Guard Archers are awesome, and should be added when available. Varangian Guard are uber awesome, and will stop cavalry charges from Chivalric Knights etc. After turn 100 you should be producing VG and GA to go with the DBL's, and a siege assault army composed of these 3 will cream anything the AI produces.

So Kostas - there should be no problem with assaulting towns and castles with these units. I'm wondering if the question is really one of technique when assaulting walls - and yes, take out the towers as soon as the gates are down.

Of course, the glory of the Byzantines are their cavalry, and in the field I often have pure cavalry armies, The infantry follow up for the siege assaults.

I know that play style, and managing the economy are also big factors in how good an army you can afford to produce. So, I'm also wondering if Kostas has the economy set up to produce enough of the best units at the earliest time ...

[Aeratus]

In terms of units, IMO the Byzantines are quite weak in cavalry in Medieval 2. Their Kataphract has 10/16 in stats, which is quite inferior to the Turkish Qapukulu (13/18), for example, or other elite cavalry like Royal Mamluk and Khan's Guard. They have a very good horse archers, but not as good as the Polish Streltzy or Russian Dvor.

For better cavalry, play SS, in which Byzantines have their mightly Scholarii unit.

[crzyrndm]

In terms of units, IMO the Byzantines are quite weak in cavalry in Medieval 2. Their Kataphract has 10/16 in stats, which is quite inferior to the Turkish Qapukulu (13/18), for example, or other elite cavalry like Royal Mamluk and Khan's Guard. They have a very good horse archers, but not as good as the Polish Streltzy or Russian Dvor.

For better cavalry, play SS, in which Byzantines have their mightly Scholarii unit.

Or Kingdoms/GUAM with Archontoupoulai.

The strength of the byzantines is similar to that of the milanese. Their cities produce infantry that are almost the equal of there castle brethren. You do need castles for byz guard/cav, but panic recruiting for surprise sieges/religious action is much easier than with most factions. Just don't rely on thier spears

[Xellos_Moon]

The byzantine strength is with its economy. Strategic alliances with Hungary and anyone of the italian states will ensure a good front for you if you wanna take on the turks first. You can even go vice versa.

Units should be contained with majority of vardoratoi. Theyll kick everyone's asses