The Spartan Agoge - Some Thoughts

[Zenith Darksea]

Now, I know that the EB team is going to put Spartan hoplites (among various other fine looking units) into the next full release, and as in my experience the team has always seemed quite happy to listen to people's thoughts, I decided I might make a little input. It may well be that it's too late to give any useful input on this issue, but what the heck. It's something for you to read.

Right, flattery over. I've been thinking about how the Spartan culture in EB should work. Now, here are some thoughts:

1. Spartan Hoplite recruitment times should be 0.
2. They should be recruitable in any city with a Spartan Agoge, not just Sparta.
3. Sparta itself should be able to produce ordinary Hoplites.

These seem like wild suggestions, I'm sure, but I'll explain the reasoning behind them.

1. Spartans spent their whole life in training, and as such would not need to be given more training before being sent on campaign. What about gameplay you say? Well, quite right. I would suggest that the Spartan Hoplites also have a hefty unit upkeep cost to compromise (and it wouldn't exactly be a-historical, either), thus discouraging the player from spamming Spartan Hoplites.
2. If I can institute a Klerouchia Agogike Spartiatike in a certain city that isn't Sparta itself, surely by this transplantation of Spartan culture I should be able to train Spartan soldiers there? You could, I suppose, argue that instituting a Spartan Cleruchy doesn't actually bring all of Spartan culture with it, but merely makes it like the island of Melos or the colony of Kyrene - Spartan in ethos and ancestry, but not in its complete lifestyle. However, the description of the government type in EB does suggest that it brings the complete Spartan lifestyle with it. It would be an interesting concept in my opinion, if Sparta decided to export its culture and partially reverse its suicidal social policy (and would probably have been the only way, historically speaking, of saving the Spartan culture), so it might be an interesting gameplay element. But again, what about Spartan Hoplite spamming? I'd suggest making the penalties that go with this government a bit harsher to make up for the new abilities.
3. Let's face it, Sparta did produce ordinary Hoplites from the Perioikoi, so there's no reason why it shouldn't in EB.

[swabian]

short comment to your first suggestion: in whichever way spartan hoplites may have been devoted to militaristic doctrines, they were assuredly not more professional and focused on training ( i.e. available ) than imperial roman cohortes for instance. however, a recruitement time of 1 turn for an exceptional elite would allready include the meaning of highly professionalized training and hyper-militarism, as such units usually have recruitment times of 2 or even 3 rounds. 0 turns however is simply absurd and it would cause a hardly controllable impact on the whole gameplay for the sake of only one faction.

[Zenith Darksea]

I never said that third century Spartan Hoplites were ultimate warriors (thought I'd point out that Imperial Roman Cohorts were not always what they were cracked up to be either), and that's not an issue here. However, what you cannot deny is that their military training was a part of their life, and so recruitment in Sparta historically was merely a case of calling up soldiers - they did not need to be trained from scratch. You say that they usually take two or three turns - but that was Vanilla RTW, which wasn't realistic in that respect. Two or three turns in EB would represent just under a year - however, Spartans trained their whole life anyway, so this extra training time is inexplicable. As for the gameplay, I don't think at all that it would have an absurd effect. If the cost was suitably high then it would naturally prevent any considerable effect on the numbers of Spartans on the battlefield. Do explain how it would cause a 'hardly controllable impact' on the whole gameplay of the mod. It is not at all absurd.

[DEMETRIOUS II]

I don't think you should be able to recruit Spartans like any other unit. In my opinion the best way is to have the units spawn at different points during the game. Just like when the senate rewards you with units. EB should make use of that feature.

[swabian]

However, what you cannot deny is that their military training was a part of their life, and so recruitment in Sparta historically was merely a case of calling up soldiers - they did not need to be trained from scratch.

yes, that's exactly the point: they did nothing else than to train for the battle, which is the definition of a professional soldier and it is also fitting to the roman cohorts. they didn't have to hunt/work as peasants/work as craftsmen. there is simply no way to excel the amount of time a professional soldier spends with training, be it a spartan, a roman legionaire or a navy pilot. so what the spartans effectively had on their disposal was a standing army just like the romans, hence, the availability of the spartan elite could never significantly excel the availability of roman cohorts.

you cannot introduce 0-turn recruitement times for only one unit type. this is a completely different gameplay, which would also require a completely revised economy system and another background script.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, I think that Demetrious has the right answer here. I suppose that I can see your arguments Swabian, and Demetrious' idea is a pretty good concept.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I would agree with points 2 and 3, but I don't know if that will be what makes it into the game. It's not just my opinion that decides it, especially in unit recruitment. But if we can't recruit them in other places with a spartan agoge (the places are limited to a very few areas), then I'll insist on totally doing away with the agoge as a type1 govt. There's no need to have it if you can't get the best troops there. But they will be recruitable like other units though. I don't know what the cost or build time is yet, but they won't be granted or anything like that. Under the right conditions the player will be able to get a number of these units. But keep in mind that they have overhand spears, and that they are not going to be able to decimate decent phalanx armies just by themselves. Those days were over long before 272.

[invictus]

The only problem i have with this idea, is that since the ai gets a huge money boost, imagine the greek ai getting that boost and making an army of spartans with it. But i do see where it is coming from, but the rome engine is limited, it is not perfect, so sometimes sacrifices must be made. -Leon

[DimeBagHo]

Only full Spartan citizens spent their entire lives in military training, and there was no reserve pool waiting to be called up at a moments notice. As long as the citizen class remained at a constant size, the new graduates would just replace losses. Increasing the number of full citizens would have required a political revolution (which was attempted a couple of times, so it would not be unrealistic to include this as an option) and a lead time of a generation to issue new graduates of the Agoge. Without this the most realistic representation of the Spartan Citizen class would be a fixed, or slighly declining, number of troops.

[DEMETRIOUS II]

, the new graduates would just replace losses. Increasing the number of full citizens would have required a political revolution (which was attempted a couple of times, so it would not be unrealistic to include this as an option) and a lead time of a generation to issue new graduates of the Agoge. Without this the most realistic representation of the Spartan Citizen class would be a fixed, or slighly declining, number of troops.

Hence my recommendation to have the units spawn to represent the graduating classes of newly trained Spartan citizens. It will not fit having them recruited the same as all other units. Otherwise human or AI can keep capturing cities enslaving and then building Spartan armies from newly arrived slave populations.

[Blizzard]

maybe they shouldn't be available for recruiting at all
I'd suggest they should be used as personal guards
same for gaesatae

[swabian]

maybe they shouldn't be available for recruiting at all
I'd suggest they should be used as personal guards
same for gaesatae

the gaesatae were frontline shock infantry. i would be very surprised if gallic warchiefs routinatedly risked their lives together with the frenzied gaesatae.

if spartiatoi are new general units, then the new faction ultimatly has to be sparta itself.

Hence my recommendation to have the units spawn to represent the graduating classes of newly trained Spartan citizens. It will not fit having them recruited the same as all other units. Otherwise human or AI can keep capturing cities enslaving and then building Spartan armies from newly arrived slave populations.

you could restrict the recruitable units in sparta to the spawned citizen guard (i.e. actually no recruitable units for sparta) while making regulars available as cheap mercenaries

[QwertyMIDX]

The idea of having no other units in Sparta is silly. By 272 there are a number of sizeable costal towns that would have provided 'conventional' troops, not to mention the periokoi who had been providing 'conventional' soldiers for well on 500 years at this point. Basically there were plenty of people in Laconia who weren't Spartan citizens, in fact there were barely any people who were.

[Blizzard]

Hannibal used to have gaestae as personal guard
after all they were the ultimate warriors
maybe they should be available for recruitment and in the mean time constitute the general's guard as well

[jedisponge]

Hannibal used to have gaestae as personal guard
after all they were the ultimate warriors
maybe they should be available for recruitment and in the mean time constitute the general's guard as well

To jump into this branching arguement in this thread, Hannibal's use of Gasaetae as a guard was an anolomy. It was something that just happened by chance, and it wasn't something that was the norm. For that reason, I don't see why Gaesatae should be a bodyguard unit.

[swabian]

i think you misinterprete this. they were hannibals personal guard, but hannibal surely didn't sniff some coke with them before insanely charging the enemy without taking care for his own life. i think this has to be understood as kind of a last defensive line in hannibals army, but i doubt hannibal led them personally.

[Blizzard]

i think you misinterprete this. they were hannibals personal guard, but hannibal surely didn't sniff some coke with them before insanely charging the enemy without taking care for his own life. i think this has to be understood as kind of a last defensive line in hannibals army, but i doubt hannibal led them personally.

with the risk of this being considered as spam:
Hannibal never sniffed coke, only shish kebab

[swabian]

if you are refering to me, then i entreat you to read correctly: i didn't suggest there should be no other recruitable units, i suggested to avoid the recruitment of spartan unit's from enslaved populace and instead of normal unit recruitement, there could be a broder variety of cheap mercenaries. but by calling something a 'silly idea' you probably tried to insinuate an 'off topic issue'.´edit: trhe intention was to keep teh spartan army completely independant from the pop.size. maybe til a certein reform is put through or whatever.

[QwertyMIDX]

Oh man I'm sorry, I read a 'not' that wasn't there in your post. I apologize. I've just been fighting for your point 3) a good deal lately. Again, my apologies.

[Captian Marcus Cornelius]

i really think that the Agoge should be a very specialty type of government along with changing the tire two group to the main government call it something like Allied City or Member city , because the KH are meant to be the allied Helens ,

so it would work like this

Type one Allied City or Member city
Only the large Greeks cities could become this
Type two Colonies
Only small Greeks cities and some other cities
Type three local tyrant
Any where
Type four Military Protectorate , or Protected state to distinguish it form the Allied City
Also any where
Special type Spartan Agoge very limited range

I don’t know how well it will work but it would kind of of cool