were Iraq's war justified by the cost of so many civilans?

[Panic]

In the biggest official files leak in history nearly 400,000 Iraq war logs reveal the massive scale of civilian deaths and new torture allegations following an investigation by Channel 4′s Dispatches.Channel 4 News has accessed the data in the classified documents via The Bureau of Investigative Journalism and WikiLeaks.
The only TV doc to have advance access to the biggest Wikileaks release ever. This is what really happened during the Iraq war, not what the US PR machine of the time wanted us to believe. The reality behind the civilian death count; al-Qaeda’s fictitious presence; torture, torture and more torture. A wall of truth revealing unprecedented levels of unwarranted aggression.
Dispatches, Channel 4′s flagship current affairs strand, exposes the full and unreported horror of the Iraqi conflict and its aftermath, revealing the true scale of civilian casualties and allegations that even after the scandal of Abu Ghraib, American soldiers continued to abuse prisoners.
And that US forces did not systematically intervene in the torture and murder of detainees by the Iraqi security services. The programme also features previously unreported material of insurgents being killed while trying to surrender.
Were Iraq's war justified by the cost of so many civilans? ,-Link of the video what motivated me to post this thread:" http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvi...s__wikileaks_/ "

[Imperial]

I the massive scale of civilian deaths "

Is there a number to add to that?

[Panic]

Is there a number to add to that?

According to the US army war reports during 2004-2009:" Wounded 176000, 109.032 deaths ,66.081 of those were civilans (deaths)

[Yosemite]

the US cried it's eyes out for 9 11, but when something worse happens to other countries... it's just numbers

[Prosaic Visitant]

^So that would be why many Americans and other Westerners protest the war due to the corpse count?

[Enemy of the State]

I wonder what gives some people the right to decide wheter the lives of others are a "justifiable cost"?

[LegionnaireX]

FYI most major wars result in tremendous civilian casualties. In nearly every case the number of civilian deaths exceed military deaths. Nearly 50 million civilians were killed during WWII, yet you don't see anyone trying to claim that WWII wasn't a just war.

So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that so many people died in the conflict. What a hard number like that doesn't tell you is the manner of death. I would wager to say that a significant portion of that 109,000 were due to the actions of the insurgency rather than coalition troops.

[Enemy of the State]

FYI most major wars result in tremendous civilian casualties. In nearly every case the number of civilian deaths exceed military deaths. Nearly 50 million civilians were killed during WWII, yet you don't see anyone trying to claim that WWII wasn't a just war.

Of course it was. All government wars are unjust. When someone uses force against you, it is only morally permissable to retaliate against the initiator. If you harm someone else in the process, there is no difference between you and the initiator. Retaliation against Hitler and his goons was certainly just, but not against the millions of Germans who were murdered throughout the war through terrorbombing.

It's really disturbing how some of us trust our rulers so much that they're willing to totally turn off their sense of morality. Murder is supposedly the greatest sin a man can commit, but that can change very quickly if a politician says so. What is considered an example of pure evil, becomes an act of heroism.

[LegionnaireX]

Of course it was. All government wars are unjust. When someone uses force against you, it is only morally permissable to retaliate against the initiator. If you harm someone else in the process, there is no difference between you and the initiator. Retaliation against Hitler and his goons was certainly just, but not against the millions of Germans who were murdered throughout the war through terrorbombing.

If someone with that mentality had been in command of the Allied forces then Hitler would have succeeded in conquering the whole of Europe.

It is a waste of time moralizing about war. If one is interested in winning a conflict than they will inevitably end up causing collateral damage. If the death of thousands is necessary to prevent tyranny and oppression of millions, then there is no choice in the matter.

And Germany civilians don't come off guilt free in WWII. A majority of them supported or enabled the Nazi Party to commit their atrocities.

It's really disturbing how some of us trust our rulers so much that they're willing to totally turn off their sense of morality. Murder is supposedly the greatest sin a man can commit, but that can change very quickly if a politician says so. What is considered an example of pure evil, becomes an act of heroism.

It is only a conundrum if one interprets morality in black and white. It is not, however, this way. That said, most people who have been through war have difficulty coping with their experiences, no matter how justified or not the conflict was. I don't think you'll find a soldier who believes that indiscriminate killing is an act of heroism.

[Vanoi]

Of Retaliation against Hitler and his goons was certainly just, but not against the millions thousands of Germans who were murdered throughout the war through terrorbombing.

Fixed something for you. Also just so you know, WWII was a total war. Meaning nations fight entire nations, it is no longer limited to soldiers killing soldiers. All sides bombed each other's cities during WWII and targetted civilians. Yet no nations were charged for war crimes for it.

[Primo]

The war itself isn´t justified, so the civilian losses can´t be justified, too.

[Col. Tartleton]

Perhaps all wars are just wars. They are of little consequence. 50 million civilians would have died just the same even without a war. We are grains of sand buffeted by an infinite ocean. Even if we destroyed the earth utterly it would be of no consequence. The earth would be destroyed by an asteroid eventually. Even if we extinguished the sun it would burn out on it's own. Even if we annihilated the galaxy it would be consumed by the black hole at it's core. Even I we destroyed the universe it will eventually fade to black.

We all steadily approach the yawning void. There is no escape.

[Condottiere 40K]

When and why did those civilians die? The US bears a lot of the responsibility for ensuring just treatment of detainees and security, and mishandled administration, but a lot of those deaths were due to inter-sectarian violence post-invasion.

[panzer 4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohS_Ibzjdu4

[Prosaic Visitant]

@Condottiere 40K: Aye, most civilian deaths in Afghanistan are due to killings and road bombs from the Taliban; I wouldn't be surprised if Iraq's highest civilian death rate was un-American related.

@Col Tartleton: There is one escape; join the true faith and you shall be saved. I know you are an atheist heathen, however it is still not too late to join our true faith.

@Enemy of the State: Usually I would have your views, however sometimes the choice isn't good or better or the choice of good and bad, it's the choice of bad and worse. In this case, continuing the Iraq war and the second world war was the lesser of two evils. As for weather the war (Iraq) itself is justified or not, it's too late to stop that so we may as well make the best of a grisly situation.

[Caelius]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohS_Ibzjdu4

Two can play at that game....

[panzer 4]

Two can play at that game....

rebuilding 1 district doesnt justify the tensions and divisions caused in a country.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/now-...-life-11518922

[SPECTREtm]

rebuilding 1 district doesnt justify the tensions and divisions caused in a country.

This is the quinessential "beauty" of you arabs...

All your misery and misfortune is our fault. Always! And no matter what we do, it is always wrong.

This mentality alone is why I'm 100% against any sort of intervention in Syria, because I'm not interested in wasting my tax money on helping an utterly ungrateful people.

[nomad1414]

This is the quinessential "beauty" of you arabs...

All your misery and misfortune is our fault. Always! And no matter what we do, it is always wrong.

This mentality alone is why I'm 100% against any sort of intervention in Syria, because I'm not interested in wasting my tax money on helping an utterly ungrateful people.

Would be better .
I'm sure that if foreign troops intervene in Syria , they won't get out of there before giving it to the thing people call Israel .

Also , yes all our misery is because of western countries , read history .
examples :
1- Colonizing all Arab countries during the period from 19th century to 20th century , aiming to destroy Islam and to make it weaker , because I'm 100% sure that all the wars are because we are Muslims not because we are Arabs , including the next example too .
2- The British helped Jew gangs to take over Palestine and to get Palestinians out of their lands without right (could be used as an example of terror , your terror) .
3- Destroying Iraq .

that is all I can remember now .

And you must know that I'm a Muslim before being an Egyptian . Islam is the identity and the nationality , My loyalty is to Islam , before Egypt .

[Prosaic Visitant]

This is the quinessential "beauty" of you arabs...

All your misery and misfortune is our fault. Always! And no matter what we do, it is always wrong.

This mentality alone is why I'm 100% against any sort of intervention in Syria, because I'm not interested in wasting my tax money on helping an utterly ungrateful people.

Oh so very true. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard Arabs pin their faults on 'der West' or someone else. The most precious bit is how nothing the West does is good enough. Do nothing and we're heartless bastards who support dictators, intervene and we're war-mongers; try to promote civil society and liberal groups and we're arrogant imperialists trying to impose our culture.