Questions and ideas.

[semmes]

I saw a post for ideas somewhere but I cannot find it now, anyway.
Good, very good. But… I'm coming from RTR and EB and my first question would be why so few provinces? Italy and Greece look like empty; I read something about battles, this was a time of sieges, if you want a battle send your army to relieve the siege, that’s what AI is doing anyway.
Then, 1000AD, every single place should have basic land cultivation, dirt roads and a temple at least. I don’t know what they have in Rome, hopefully a very big church; first university in Bologna, that means the learning centre appears immediately; we’re still using roman bridges so in some places they have already paved roads; the development of some old cities should be a lot, lot bigger.
I don’t think there’s any need to bring back America, but do we need anything east of the west shore of the Caspian Sea and unless you want to sail round the Sinai Peninsula, you could cut some of the southern Nile too.
Economy. I cannot agree with Machiavelli, gold is the sinew of war. Still, it’s not challenging it’s a kind of ridiculous, I spent 30 years in Russia trying to get a minimum civilization to start with. The King’s Purse is a great idea but is not developing with time, with eras for example. Another option is as we are in the feudal era, why not baronet, marquis… purse. They get a title, they’re nobles, they’re expected to provide soldiers, not only a richer city. Let’s say a baron is poor, so the basic governor/title is providing 100 florins; a marquis, he’s not going to war, so he is paying a unit, let’s say 200; a count 500 so he’s able to keep 2 units or a good one; and a thousand for a duke. If you have 4 barons you’re getting 400, and not everybody is going to be duke, maybe a great general on retirement, maybe a province after reaching certain degree of buildings.
Yes please, remove the rebels and their fleets. I guess the designers got confused between challenging and annoying. And yes, there’s and overpopulation of civil servants, merchant, priest, witch…
Is there anyway to edit the roads? I’ve seen two roads running side by side just because there was a border between them. On the other hand there should be more roads, something like dirt roads; extra dirt roads; paved roads extra dirt rods; all paved roads, even if they go nowhere. Not exactly, because, I haven’t seen any abbey, but if you build one in a city it should appear outside, like stables, mines, farms. Or even created by characters, like forts, but producing money. Then, a marauding army, no rebels please, would have more to sack. I cannot imagine what kind of satellite intelligence or SAS team with a GPS are the watch towers.
Any chance to have AI armies instead of bands of 2 or 3 units?
Coming from board games, when you want to destroy something, it costs you time and people, and money here. Maybe 3 options for each building: sack, it’s damaged and you get some money; damage, depending on how many units you have (or 1 or two buildings per turn) and it costs you some money; destroy, you need more people, more time and more money. And I want to be able to destroy walls, when I wanted a safe border I was razing the bordering provinces, exterminate and destroy.
From RTR/EB, it doesn’t make sense that you conquer Jerusalem and immediately you’re recruiting the people you have just been killing, and in your own national units. First erecting some kind of assimilation building?
I like four seasons, especially when winter is real, half movement for all, not only for characters, storms for all. Even with 2tpy in a “bad winter” should be some penalties, even attrition if you’re moving or besieging.
Supply, I think that’s what is missing from the game. Some kind of avatar for the character that you recruit and if your moving in foreign lands without costs you attrition and speed, the same for fleets they cannot sail forever, they have to refit, in your ports or the same avatar trains/refit and you have to dock in any, not enemy, coast for one turn. At least money, more expensive every unit, and siege, the farther away from any one of your cities, ports.
Thanks.

[RKO]

Hi,

Interesting ideas. From my personal experience, and as for the development of regions not belonging to major factions (I mean rebels), I've highly increased their starting funds so that rebel settlements are behaving like independent countries (which they're actually). So with time you can see roads, stables, barracks, etc... This could be an easy fix. For abbeys, mines, farms, etc... outside the town simply play Empire TW. You'll get that. M2 is older so developers didn't create the game with this in mind (mostly video configs ) and I wonder how far modders could modify this .

Anyway, in my opinion, a balance has to be found so that TLR is more economically challenging. Tons of money is unrelevant when all your slots are full and you can't produce more, either buildings or armies. I changed merchant revenues, limited number, city taxes, farm and mine revenues so that you have to take strategic as well as tactical decisions since you can't afford everything at the same time. It's much more challenging since you may have no money when facing an unexpected attack (including rebel raids) and have to stop a building construction. I must confess it still needs fixing but I find it more interesting. Though, when I'll have 30 regions or more, I'll get the same problem as being somewhat invincible. Maybe a major AI faction could have the same desire to dominate the world ? Or maybe we could add kind of administration costs for having a big empire (like in Shogun 2) ?

Regarding the map, I don't approve you. TLR's best idea is the map ! Playing Khwarezm (I do actually) is not that interesting at the beginning but when the mongols and timurids invade, that's a real challenge. And if you're strong enough (captured Jerusalem for ex), you may also have to face with crusades at the same time ! Knowing you don't have unlimited money... Well, that's what I call a fight !

Supply is a very interesting idea. I would add back siege costs, it's roughly the same idea.

[semmes]

Hi,

Interesting ideas. From my personal experience, and as for the development of regions not belonging to major factions (I mean rebels), I've highly increased their starting funds so that rebel settlements are behaving like independent countries (which they're actually). So with time you can see roads, stables, barracks, etc... This could be an easy fix. For abbeys, mines, farms, etc... outside the town simply play Empire TW. You'll get that. M2 is older so developers didn't create the game with this in mind (mostly video configs ) and I wonder how far modders could modify this .

Anyway, in my opinion, a balance has to be found so that TLR is more economically challenging. Tons of money is unrelevant when all your slots are full and you can't produce more, either buildings or armies. I changed merchant revenues, limited number, city taxes, farm and mine revenues so that you have to take strategic as well as tactical decisions since you can't afford everything at the same time. It's much more challenging since you may have no money when facing an unexpected attack (including rebel raids) and have to stop a building construction. I must confess it still needs fixing but I find it more interesting. Though, when I'll have 30 regions or more, I'll get the same problem as being somewhat invincible. Maybe a major AI faction could have the same desire to dominate the world ? Or maybe we could add kind of administration costs for having a big empire (like in Shogun 2) ?

Regarding the map, I don't approve you. TLR's best idea is the map ! Playing Khwarezm (I do actually) is not that interesting at the beginning but when the mongols and timurids invade, that's a real challenge. And if you're strong enough (captured Jerusalem for ex), you may also have to face with crusades at the same time ! Knowing you don't have unlimited money... Well, that's what I call a fight !

Supply is a very interesting idea. I would add back siege costs, it's roughly the same idea.

Well I expect a richer AI so I have to face bigger armies and strong garrisons. So we have an eastern map for one faction? Sorry, coming from RTR/EB all I see is an empty west. Any added cost is good, it's the beginning, what are they suppose to be eating and trading?
Regards.

[ilmrik]

I saw a post for ideas somewhere but I cannot find it now, anyway.
Good, very good. But… I'm coming from RTR and EB and my first question would be why so few provinces? Italy and Greece look like empty;

Well the easy answer is that their is just a limit on provinces, at present the map wont be changed again. it's nice and encompasses a lot of the world. I have a Kingdoms idea for more settlements but it will have to wait.

I read something about battles, this was a time of sieges, if you want a battle send your army to relieve the siege, that’s what AI is doing anyway.

Well seeing as their aren't that many provinces per region sieges are pretty important, I don't often fight in the field anyway, except on choke points or with very mobile ( all cavalry armies)

Then, 1000AD, every single place should have basic land cultivation, dirt roads and a temple at least. I don’t know what they have in Rome, hopefully a very big church; first university in Bologna, that means the learning centre appears immediately; we’re still using roman bridges so in some places they have already paved roads; the development of some old cities should be a lot, lot bigger.
I don’t think there’s any need to bring back America, but do we need anything east of the west shore of the Caspian Sea and unless you want to sail round the Sinai Peninsula, you could cut some of the southern Nile too.

I couldn't agree more really and I'm looking into it ( currently were working on the EDU and EDB so all suggestions are welcome) but in short you'll have a lot more professional armies even in the beginning. lets not forget that 1065 was high middle ages going towards late. I am including a lot more "men at arms"/mercenary + knights type armies. dropping out most of the peasant units and the true rubbish rabble noone ever uses :-)
As the era's progress the very nature of warfare will change and the recruitable units will change alltogetter ( not only due to building structures )
High Middle ages: Mercs + Knights + men at arms
Late Middle ages 1 : going slowely to pikes
Late Middle Ages 2: Pike and Shot
Age of Exploration extra's include artillery and better vessels
Un named age atm: almost pure shot armies ala French revolution armies
Un named age atm: Professional armies type French reform after revolution

Note that these will be tied in with how the player develops his armies ( it will be possible to be slightly ahead/ behind on your time) It's all a lot less set in stone than it used to be tough

Economy. I cannot agree with Machiavelli, gold is the sinew of war. Still, it’s not challenging it’s a kind of ridiculous, I spent 30 years in Russia trying to get a minimum civilization to start with. The King’s Purse is a great idea but is not developing with time, with eras for example. Another option is as we are in the feudal era, why not baronet, marquis… purse. They get a title, they’re nobles, they’re expected to provide soldiers, not only a richer city. Let’s say a baron is poor, so the basic governor/title is providing 100 florins; a marquis, he’s not going to war, so he is paying a unit, let’s say 200; a count 500 so he’s able to keep 2 units or a good one; and a thousand for a duke. If you have 4 barons you’re getting 400, and not everybody is going to be duke, maybe a great general on retirement, maybe a province after reaching certain degree of buildings.
Yes please, remove the rebels and their fleets. I guess the designers got confused between challenging and annoying. And yes, there’s and overpopulation of civil servants, merchant, priest, witch…

Agent limits are returning ( and will vary depending on regional development and ruler decisions)

Something like the baronet/Marquis title has been implemented, wealthier cities/castles will provide extra income. Also a lot more events have been added wich will in turn affect your income. A lot of these deal with Nobles granting you troops.

Is there anyway to edit the roads? I’ve seen two roads running side by side just because there was a border between them. On the other hand there should be more roads, something like dirt roads; extra dirt roads; paved roads extra dirt rods; all paved roads, even if they go nowhere. Not exactly, because, I haven’t seen any abbey, but if you build one in a city it should appear outside, like stables, mines, farms. Or even created by characters, like forts, but producing money. Then, a marauding army, no rebels please, would have more to sack. I cannot imagine what kind of satellite intelligence or SAS team with a GPS are the watch towers.

I like a lot of these ideas but most are just not moddable, the only thing I can do ( and will be doing in kingdoms is use the spare cultures forts/ watchtowers to create extra villages etc on the map)

Any chance to have AI armies instead of bands of 2 or 3 units?

Well I run into full stacks all the time really

Coming from board games, when you want to destroy something, it costs you time and people, and money here. Maybe 3 options for each building: sack, it’s damaged and you get some money; damage, depending on how many units you have (or 1 or two buildings per turn) and it costs you some money; destroy, you need more people, more time and more money. And I want to be able to destroy walls, when I wanted a safe border I was razing the bordering provinces, exterminate and destroy.

Well all of these are basically impossible I'm afraid, hard coded

From RTR/EB, it doesn’t make sense that you conquer Jerusalem and immediately you’re recruiting the people you have just been killing, and in your own national units. First erecting some kind of assimilation building?

Will be looking into some options concerning this,

I like four seasons, especially when winter is real, half movement for all, not only for characters, storms for all. Even with 2tpy in a “bad winter” should be some penalties, even attrition if you’re moving or besieging.

Is being worked on

Supply, I think that’s what is missing from the game. Some kind of avatar for the character that you recruit and if your moving in foreign lands without costs you attrition and speed, the same for fleets they cannot sail forever, they have to refit, in your ports or the same avatar trains/refit and you have to dock in any, not enemy, coast for one turn. At least money, more expensive every unit, and siege, the farther away from any one of your cities, ports.
Thanks.

Keogh was working on a trait based supply system, don't know what became of it

Hi,
Anyway, in my opinion, a balance has to be found so that TLR is more economically challenging. Tons of money is unrelevant when all your slots are full and you can't produce more, either buildings or armies. I changed merchant revenues, limited number, city taxes, farm and mine revenues so that you have to take strategic as well as tactical decisions since you can't afford everything at the same time. It's much more challenging since you may have no money when facing an unexpected attack (including rebel raids) and have to stop a building construction. I must confess it still needs fixing but I find it more interesting. Though, when I'll have 30 regions or more, I'll get the same problem as being somewhat invincible. Maybe a major AI faction could have the same desire to dominate the world ? Or maybe we could add kind of administration costs for having a big empire (like in Shogun 2) ?

Managing a large empire will be made more difficult, but yes in general you have waaay to much money (I hit over 98 million it sorta makes the game less interesting )

I've been experimenting with more invasive dynamic events, I'll probably be including some increased cost to make desicions far away from your capital.

[semmes]

Managing a large empire will be made more difficult, but yes in general you have waaay to much money (I hit over 98 million it sorta makes the game less interesting )

I've been experimenting with more invasive dynamic events, I'll probably be including some increased cost to make desicions far away from your capital.[/QUOTE]

Yes, there's a moment when your faction is safe (and not funny anymore), AI is hardcoded so is not going to attack with big armies and defend with strong garrisons? I know it's cheating with money, but not to a very good purpose. You're lucky with your rebels.

[Big Dogg]

I agree with Ilmrik

And as a side not (You guys are seeing mod work in action here )

Should these ages:

Un named age atm: almost pure shot armies ala French revolution armies
Un named age atm: Professional armies type French reform after revolution

Not be Renaissance and Enlightenment respectively?

[ilmrik]

At the moment I'm using Early modern and early industrial,
The main problem is that the world was in such varied stages of development but anyway all this is for the text strings the scripted names don't really matter.

ps Alec have a look at the EDU spreadsheet :-)

[Big Dogg]

Fair point, that is just what they are normally referred to and I'm looking now!

[RKO]

semmes,

I think it would even be much more challenging if ai was really strong during battles (a bit like in shogun 2). That's the point. Since it wouldn't constantly need huge armies with powerful units to really be in a position of challenging human player and win more often. TLR helps on that point I must admit (thank you guys ) Anyway, i'm quite sure the game is autobalanced so that human player is never (or almost never) completely dominated by ai factions. This (hard code ?) will be quite difficult to counter, i guess.

Well, though there's a latest solution: just modify unit upkeeps for all factions but yours (a bit like in vanilla for mongols and timurids armies upkeep being 0) and i'm sure you'll keep on getting strong ai armies !

This is not big work.

[semmes]

semmes,

Well, though there's a latest solution: just modify unit upkeeps for all factions but yours (a bit like in vanilla for mongols and timurids armies upkeep being 0) and i'm sure you'll keep on getting strong ai armies !

This is not big work.

Maybe not too big, but is it going to work? I guess I will have to change the script (and make a backup copy because any little mistake is going to be a bug or a CTD), I guess I'll be able to find how to do it in this game, but is the AI going to recruit bigger armies?, to use them?, to defend its cities? It would be easier to change the king's purse for every faction?
I like the 4 seasons in EB, and the script activation, but if I change to 4tpy here I'm only getting more turns, it's not working.
Regards.

[Big Dogg]

Well, though there's a latest solution: just modify unit upkeeps for all factions but yours (a bit like in vanilla for mongols and timurids armies upkeep being 0) and i'm sure you'll keep on getting strong ai armies !

Hmm that could be a solution although i'd rather have the AI playing smartly rather than cheating their way to victory.

[ilmrik]

It would also require way too many EDU slots and is hence not a viable option I'm afraid

[RKO]

Hmm !

AI playing cleverly ? Well there's still a lot of work and testing to do then... ! I don't want to be negative but facts are what they are !

Once again today I saw Egypt not really defending its capital when a crusade was running. It preferred live it "empty of armies" (or so) and (I think) go to conquer new rebel settlements than defend it against catholic factions. When catholic armies were almost besieging Cairo (and surprisingly 3 or 4 catholic factions reached there at the same time with full stack armies - huh, well which was utterly clever !) no need to say it was too late to do something. Even a human player wouldn't have been able to face this, for sure !

Or it was part of an astounding strategy which i don't really believe: taking back capital city with help of friends during a Jihad ? Well, I play Khwarezm and i won't call for a Jihad !

Well finally, what about including penalties when losing empire capital ? Such as possibility of revolution and kind of empire division between faithful regions and other going back to rebels (or to new capital owner) ? Obviously ai would have to be very well taught on that ! Human player still would have possibility of changing city (except when besieged: too late for that). Well... what you think ?

[RKO]

- Upkeep: yes, it's gonna work fine. Obviously, pay attention to any mistake when you modify ! It should take you one or two hours (not so much actually)
- AI is gonna recruit bigger armies and as long as it can: declare war to what faction you want (and as many as you want)
- Defending its cities: yes, it should though I don't know that much about ai strategic defense. Eventually it may even try to stop you before you can besiege its settlements
- Changing king's purse is only a matter of giving more money to what faction you want to and less to others. This works perfectly fine and is easily tuneable. But works once only: once the game has started you need to start another one to change this parameter. Same for starting funds. It's the easiest and quickest way to mod economics of course, though not very accurate.
- Regarding 4 turns, I'm not sure I understand you. As for me I'm playing 2 turns / year (my params)

[semmes]

- Regarding 4 turns, I'm not sure I understand you. As for me I'm playing 2 turns / year (my params)

In EB everything has been adapted for a four seasons year, including penalties for marching armies in winter (if commanding by a character). Meaning ageing, constructions time, movement, even if fleets are dead slow. I think it was 2 years to sail from Rome to the Nile... that's planning a campaign. By the way, anybody knows how to delete ZOCs or that's hardcoded too?
Regards.

[Big Dogg]

AI playing cleverly ? Well there's still a lot of work and testing to do then... ! I don't want to be negative but facts are what they are !

I do remember someone making an excellent campaign Ai a year or two ago which hopefully they will let us use, that is if i can remember what it was called

[RKO]

Yep !

Though I've started another campaign playing Byzantium. Changing parameters such as settlement mechanics (taxes, farms and mines revenues, pop max, merchant revenues), king's purse and starting funds it's really challenging. Waouh !

I really have to fight (almost) to my best since i'm always overmatched by ai with stronger units. Especially those nasty Sicilians ! Though i can compensate with greater numbers and fine use of peasant archers (anyway at the very beginning Byzantium can only get those since i've disabled stables for cities not being minor cities). With short money, believe me it's tough. Hopefully there won't be any crusade on Constantinople right now (i'm in 1088) since i don't see how i'll face it.

AI is still beatable though, especially when armies are directed by captains only. This has to be corrected if possible. But poor Sicilians, i already killed them 2 family members and 1 heir ! Well, they keep on trying and they even ask me for vassal !

Now I counterattack on Durazzo, while i must face first attacks from Turks.

Another point: diplomacy has to be fixed (i'm looking for it right now) since I've replaced TLR's with vanilla's and, with time, relations are getting worse... Every catholic faction is already abysmal with me ! Not my fault, stupid Sicilians attacked one of my settlements while going on crusade. Pfff, obviously i crushed them ! Since then nobody likes me . Muslims ? Euh... don't even talk !

Regarding Egypt, once again in 1085 they had to face a crusade. That time there were 3 full stacked armies defending against 1 lonely hre army... Seems to be randomized then ? Nice if so !

[RKO]

Hi,

As a new idea for TLR 3.0, if possible Mod Team please do modify that ai includes general units much more often (or even always) in its armies since captain leaded armies are far too easy to crush. I've lowered quite a lot general unit costs and upkeeps and shortened unit build time but it doesn't change anything: ai armies are mostly leaded by captains and almost can't challenge my armies even when outnumbered (or quite substantially only).

Also, please include quicker base command (stars) progress for ai generals so that ai algorythms are more often at their best. For human player, quicker progress doesn't really change anything except when you autoresolve.
These modifications (maybe) only for VH difficulty ?

[ilmrik]

Hmm, a quicker stars progression is a great idea ( and one I'll certainly implement ),
I have no experience with the modding of the AI but I'll try and make generals more readily available to the AI ( perhaps that will work)

[danny X]

Hmm, a quicker stars progression is a great idea ( and one I'll certainly implement ),
I have no experience with the modding of the AI but I'll try and make generals more readily available to the AI ( perhaps that will work)

maybe this can help you:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=77469