Various Suggestions from a Veteran Fan
Hullo, EB2 forum.
Since I think a blind man on his deathbed could manage to catch the opinion of this forum towards new members, let me start out by saying that I am not an idiot who just wandered here to ask why Julius Caesar wasn't in the original. I'm a long-time fan and player of the original Europa Barbarorum, as well as a History major and Classics enthusiast, and I've got a few ideas for how to make EBII more realistic and more flexible at the same time.
Now since I've thwarted your original assumption that I was just another plebian of the internet (don't lie, you were thinking it) I'll thwart your next response of "you've got no idea how to mod, sir" with this: I am a game developer. Indie, yes, and only a writer, but still a dev--I understand how engines work on a basic level and I also understand the difficulties of adding features when they aren't pre-coded into the game. I understand cannibalization of components, like the religion/crusade system (not sure if you guys are to be using them or not, I'm merely saying I understand the concept of taking these features and altering them to another end), and I also understand the limitations of hard-coded information. I know that most of my ideas probably won't be taken on--potentially none of them--and I'm not demanding anything, merely offering my input.
I will mention three things before I begin, however: firstly, that I am new to these forums, so I don't necessarily know well the ins and outs here. Second, I've not been keeping track of EBII as best as I could have, so I might be (dun-dun-dun!) bringing up things that've already been beaten to death. Third, that, while I like to consider myself an EB vet and I've played at least one faction of each type (Civilized/Barbarian/Nomad) I might well have missed mechanics that were present in EB and I simply didn't notice them. That means go easy on me, if you would; my ideas are meant to help out, even if they've been discussed before. I did do some basic searches, but I admit I might've missed something very easily.
I welcome any comments, questions, recommendations, and new ideas based on any of my concepts!
My Ideas:
(In no particular order of difficulty or importance):
1. Government/Citizenship Components: A big part of what I liked about the original EB was the government system--it showed realistically how many factions governed their Provinces, and it added an amazing new tactical element. In EB2, however, I think this can be expanded to great effect with new buildings/upgrades for the government "building" in the form of Citizenship modifiers. Citizenship is one of the easiest concepts to understand, but what I believe would be one of the most difficult to implement. It is, of course, a measure of how many people in any given Province are actually citizens of your Empire, as opposed to subjects/slaves/etc. The question is, how would it be implemented, and what would the effects be?
As for implementation, it's my belief that the Government building should simply have some basic upgrades. For example, construct a Tier-3 government, and you would be presented with a whole range of "upgraded" government types after it was completed: Tier-3 Government with 0% Citizens, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% Citizens (Tier-1 governments, by default, represent homeland Provinces and should have limited/no choices on Citizenship (for example, Tier-1 governments could only have a minimum of 50% citizenship, say). Tier-4 governments would have no upgrade options, as they are not formally part of your empire). By making the player construct a government and then choose an upgrade option, if they choose to do so, it would remove clutter from the list of buildings present in the city (so the player could see all/most of what they've got constructed there) and add yet another layer to the tactics of integrating a Province into your empire--constructing a government unlocks new building types and abilities, but it's only one step of a much longer process to fully integrate a Province.
Now, as for the mechanics of these upgrades and what they would do, that's slightly harder. Depending upon the government type and the upgrade option, the change would alter things in different ways (in my mind, of course; what the engine can actually do is a different story). In general, however, this is how I see things: the more freedmen there are in a settlement the more productive it is economically and the less Unrest affects their happiness levels, but the less Garrisons affect their contentment, as well. In addition, the more freedmen are present in your empire the less content the core Tier-1 cities of your empire should be (if that's possible to code). If possible, there should likewise be penalties to order when converting a Tier-3 government type to >50% citizenship (assuming that the locals, who have their own traditions and customs (Tier-3 in a nutshell) become citizens and can practice their customs more freely, one must assume their loyalty to the empire will decline slightly). Also, depending upon the faction, having incredibly high (75% or 100%) citizenry rates in a Province might disable some of the more... "interesting" methods of the state, such as secret police (assuming any faction has something of the like) or estate systems like Latifundia that require high slave counts.
It's possible--although I suggest not using this because of Suggestion #3 below--that the Crusade/Jihad feature could also be used (if it's not already in use) in certain cases if a region has a high enough citizen rating, allowing generals to temporarily turn on a "crusade" to nowhere that allows them to recruit massive amounts of (approximately) strong, well-trained citizen mercenaries for a single turn. I think the Crusade/Jihad system wouldn't work like that, per say (and I'm gunning for Suggestion #3 anyway), but I felt I should mention the idea.
The primary focus of the citizenship function though, I think, should always be upon armies and their upkeep. In EB, many faction-specific units could only be trained in Tier-1 and Tier-2 governments for most of the game, with Tier-3 receiving almost no factional troops. But, as a way of expressing how an empire would evolve as it gained more land and enveloped more customs into itself, the Citizenship modifier could allow even outlying Provinces some factional troops to train.
The way I envision it, Tier-2/Tier-3 governments with relatively high citizenship ratings would unlock the ability to train "Citizen ___" from their local recruitment buildings, or perhaps gain access to factional barracks that they would not normally have access to (these would still be training citizen units). These citizen groups would be watered-down imitations of respective faction troops--this would mean that factional troops visiting these Provinces would *not* be able to retrain there, and that these imitation troops would be significantly weaker than their cousins produced from homeland territories.
If implemented, I suspect the development team would disable the ability to train citizen imitations for certain factions based upon historical accuracy, and I would expect no less, but I think the option, for certain factions, is an excellent idea. If nothing else, perhaps Tier-2 governments with 100% citizenship could unlock the equivalent Tier-1 units.
2. More Realistic Population Growth: Population growth in the original EB was somewhat... interesting, for lack of a better way to put it. It seemed incredibly easy to get a massive population growth rate, but then incredibly hard to keep it in check if you overdid it (in an interesting story, one time in Maryab I had a 8.5% population growth rate (as Egypt) with no general at about 4,500 civilians; I tried upgrading the settlement at 6,000 and it rebelled before I had finished because the population was exploding so quickly). I'm not saying that this is inaccurate--the EB team has the experts, I'm just an enthusiast--but it seems to me to be something that might bear some looking into, if you haven't already.
One thing I will say, however, is that I believe ports should greatly increase population growth rate. The only way Rome's population was maintained was through grain shipments from Egypt, unless I'm much mistaken, and ports in vanilla and EB only reflect a trade bonus, not the inevitable population growth that will occur from immigrants and grain trade. It's my recommendation that, if the population growth system is kept fairly stable, the EB team might wish to consider altering the cap for upgrading settlements (if possible). Doubling it might be a good idea, so max-tier cities can only be produced once a population of roundabouts 58,000 is achieved. This kind of change would, of course, demand some tweaks of its own to make getting to 58,000 even possible, but I think that number is more accurate, myself.
3. Faction Leader/Local Ruler: A great deal of history has single rulers declaring themselves to be monarchs or regents of a certain type over an area--Ptolmey called himself Pharaoh long after the time of true Pharaohs had passed, for example, and Queen Victoria of England was Empress of India even though she was only the Queen of Britain.
If possible, I think this should be reflected in EB2. For example, if a Seleukid faction leader conquered the Nile Valley, he could declare himself the Pharaoh of Egypt in addition to being the Basileus of the Seleukids, with varying benefits and downsides (more respect from Egyptian cities, less respect from all other cities, etc--these are just some examples).
I'm not sure if making this optional is even possible, but I do have an idea. If the crusade/jihad mechanic isn't being used, it's possible that it can be adapted to this end. If a core city of any given empire is controlled by your faction, you could send your Faction Leader on a "crusade", select the important city (we'll use Alexandria as an example) and confirm crusade. The "crusade" will immediately end, with your faction leader having declared himself the Pharoah of Egypt, in this case. This would give a load of benefits in most cases (more loyalty from the region, more output for the region, MAYBE more factional troops out of the region), but also a few potential downsides (his faction disliking the leader more (assassination percent chance increased), less factional loyalty, penalties to trade/loyalty if the leader is too far away from the area he's named himself the leader of).
This system might even be used to create a Persian-like Satrap system--who says that your faction's leader has to be the one to adopt the title? He could have his brother or even his heir do it. Now that I think about it, the possibility of a faction leader giving these titles or jurisdictions to different members of the family opens incredible possibilities--new negative traits for the faction leader (jealous of local governor's success, fearful of his influence), positive traits for the governor (management of an empire, prepared to be named leader), and negative traits for the governor (power-hungry (easier to bribe), corrupt (drags down income of entire region), etc.). This even opens the possibility, if it's codable, of a Satrapal revolts--if a particularly poor leader is given the title of Pharoah of Egypt, for example, he could declare Egypt "independent" of your rule and cause all of Egypt to revolt simultaneously, turning it into an Eleutheroi state.
Obviously this system of naming leaders as regents of different regions would not be available for all factions, only for factions that possessed singular rulers in truth (kings, emperors) and those who had conquered lands of historical interest to the world or to their particular faction (Ptolmey, Pharoah of Egypt, King of Macedonia, Emperor of Greece--you get the idea). And, as usual, naming your leaders regents of these areas would have different ups and downs, so factions that couldn't do it wouldn't be missing out on too much--it would be more dangerous to do it poorly than to not do it at all.
4. Women Are Important: Seriously. I liked in EB how traits were granted based upon the wives--fertility, intelligence, vitality--but their part in making your new generals was virtually all you ever heard about; they and their impact on their husbands were virtually completely, if not completely, ignored. Aside from infidelity.
I think more traits should be granted based upon women in EB2--wives and, potentially, daughters. For example, if one of your generals has two daughters, he should have individual traits describing and differentiating his two daughters (if possible), since they themselves can't have any. This would allow you to better plan marriages for those daughters, so they could better balance the men that they would be paired with. At this point wives come in, and I know at least this part of it is doable--wives should have more effects on their husbands. Wives with good managing skills should buffer the skills of their husbands; wives from important families buffer influence, etc.
If the daughter system is possible the daughter's skills should be "transferred" to her husband when they marry; if the daughter system isn't, the wife system should still be implemented, with a variety of benefits. As I suggested, management and influence buffers, as well as other traits reflecting your general and his wife's personal life that have myriad effects (happy marriage, average marriage, terrible marriage, disagreements over children, supportive marriage, unhappy about cheating, etc.). I'll also add that I think being married to the daughter of the faction leader should give those particular generals some benefit or other.
5. Settlement Default: This one's a rather small and short request. While playing as the Sabeans, I frequently had settlements that were previously Ptolmaic default to me post-rebellion, and this kept breaking the fragile peace that I had with Egypt. Without trade to and from Egypt I didn't have enough money to do much of anything, and these settlements kept draining my resources--both with their huge garrison sizes and their tendencies to cause multiple wars--to the extent that I could barely function, even if I tried abandoning them immediately.
I suggest that EB2 have a system where you can choose to accept becoming the protector of rebellious settlements or not, rather than just assuming direct control over them automatically if they're culturally similar to your faction. If you choose not to, they should simply become Eleutheroi-controlled.
6. AI: I would actually be surprised if you didn't get this a lot, but it'd be nice if the AI wasn't so prone to attack you simply because you border them. I've heard a tale or two about AI mods out there that make the AI focus on attacking cities relevant to their factional goals rather than just attacking border settlements; if this could be integrated into EB2 it'd save a lot of heartache and frustration over trigger-happy AI. At the very least it'd be nice if even a simple modification could be made to make them less prone to attacking non-essential targets, or trying diplomacy (like buying settlements they need before attacking to get them).
7. State Religions: When I play EB I usually have two different Gods that I worship; in Tier-1 and, sometimes, Tier-2 settlements I worship war gods that strengthen my military while in Tier-3 and further settlements I worship Gods that grant the most happiness bonuses, so I can expand my empire as far as possible. It's just a passing thought, but it'd be interesting if there were some way to declare a state religion of one/a few primary gods that would then, presumably, grant further bonuses. Perhaps buildings that become available once a certain level of government/temple is achieved? For example, as the Romans, if I worshiped Mars in my Tier-1 settlements, perhaps I could construct a building that made Mars the "state religion" of all Tier-1 government settlements if I had a Tier-1 government and a level 3/4 temple to Mars in any applicable settlement? The same could be done with Tier-2 or any other tier settlements, decreeing Provinces of that level to be partial to certain Gods or Goddesses.
This is really one of my more unlikely/unimportant suggestions, but I felt I should mention it anyway.
8. Military/Administrative/Etc Centers: In empires, the capital is not necessary the full center of all actions. Some empires have their military or economic centers away from the capital. In EB2, I think it might be a good idea to reflect this. Throughout the Empire, different cities can be decreed centers of one particular thing or other--this can be changed at any time by the player, to reflect a growing Empire. Citing Rome as an example, Rome herself could be the center of Administration, but Capua could be the military center while Taras was the economic.
The "buildings" used for these centers would be similar to the government buildings, or perhaps even upgrades to them a la the citizenship upgrades I suggested in my first proposal. Each center would give different benefits to the town it's been placed in (and perhaps new buildings; I leave the decision on this fully to the EB team): military would increase the morale and experience of troops trained in that settlement, as well as decreasing their recruitment cost (and potentially upkeep...?). Economic would obviously bolster the city's economy and perhaps decrease the cost of buildings in the settlement. Administrative would decrease the cost of buildings also. The core aspect of these three proposed centers would be what they do to generals stationed in these cities, however--a general stationed in a military center should gain better use of military tactics (command stars), administrative centers grant management, and economy influence (with a smaller sprinkle of management tossed in).
So, theoretically, if one city is the center of all these three proposed functions and it had an academy in it it would be an unprecedented center to train generals and administrators of an empire, but it would also be a tragedy if it were ever lost, and it would be harder and harder to get generals there as your empire's borders expanded. I think this is a great way to add a new tactical edge to the game, myself.
9. AI Auto-Demolish Certain Structures: To make the game more realistic, I think the AI should automatically demolish some structures upon territory conquest. If the above idea is taken into account, any "Military/Economic/Administrative" center should be auto-destroyed, as well as any government that was previously a part of the Province. This more closely reflects the back-and-forth of war, I feel, and makes players less likely to casually give settlements over to the enemy.
10. Roman Triumphs/Special Cognomen for All Factions: I'm not positive this hasn't been included even in the original, but I remember reading somewhere that Roman triumphs, and perhaps specialty names (Makedonicvs, Africanvs) were only granted for factions that Roman generals had traditionally received triumphs for. Honor history though I do, part of Rome: TW's benefits is that it allows us to carve out our own Roman empire if we so choose, and, if the above is the case, I think it should be altered so that triumphs and special cognomen be granted for all factions (save a few--you can't really be given a special cognomen for the Koinon Hellenon, since they aren't really a united faction).
11. Barbarian Elected Kings Negative Trait: This is a really small idea, but I know at least the Aedui kings were elected, and I'm not sure if a negative trait about a suspected fraudulent election was included or not. If not, I suggest it now--I think having a King whose election was suspect would be interesting.
12. Evolution of Government: Governments in EB are obviously constructable based upon whether or not a faction historically held that location and for how long (which is a logical decision and a smart way to implement the feature). However, I think that the experience would be more accurate to how you were playing the game if, after an incredibly long amount of time, regions could "grow" the ability to produce higher-level governments.
This would be an incredibly long process that would not have a building attached to it (if possible). It would be representative of the spread of culture and infrastructure and how long it would take to eradicate the native culture in any given area so the empire could take a more direct hand in matters. I propose that, if implemented, any Tier-2 government could be replaced with a Tier-1 after 100+ in-game years (400+ turns) and any Tier-3 could be replaced with a Tier-2 after ~40 years (~120 turns) (this doesn't necessarily mean you can capture a Tier-3 settlement, wait 40 years, and then wait an additional 100 years and get it to be Tier-1--whether or not it should be transitional like that (the lowest "true" government can eventually become the highest) is a very arguable point in and of itself). The replacement mechanic would show people that historically any given region was held for "X" time at "X" strength by your faction, but it would also allow them, with time, to evolve that system of government to be more advanced, as any real state would.
For the preservation of historical accuracy, if replacing a Tier-3 with a Tier-2 and a Tier-2 with a Tier-1 is a problem, governments could simply be upgraded (Tier-3 becomes Advanced Tier-3 or something) or Tier-2 might become an "Imitation Tier-1".
12. Truly Representative Empire Growth: By far the largest and most complicated thing I suggest is what I think would make the game play the best out of all of my suggestions--truly representative Empire growth, what I would hesitatingly call the assimilation of technology and culture.
This is represented in the original EB, but to a relatively slight extent and only truly for a few factions. I know the Saka had it, in their becoming the Indo-Saka, but that was a relatively small change. The two largest and most well-implemented cases were the Pahlava, when they became the Arsacid Persian Dynasty, and Hayasdan, when it did much the same. Even these transformations, though--becoming civilized, unlocking new governments, and unlocking new building options--doesn't really capture the core of what I'm saying. When playing as the Sweboz, do you ever get the urge to build highways? Academies? Things that southern culture have that you, even if you conquer them, can never build for yourself?
When I'm playing Europa Barbarorum, I want to learn about history at the same time that I get the chance to shape it, and, moreover, alter it. I want to be able to take the Sweboz and conquer civilizations to the south, civilizations that will then grant their secrets of statecraft to me so that I can go forth and conquer further. In a very real sense, I wish I could turn the Sweboz into the Swebo-Romani empire and conquer the Mediterranean world, if I so desired. But Suebic (?) infrastructure is such that I could never do that with their default abilities--once I got too far away, not even top-level Sweboz cities would be able to keep their loyalty to the faraway capital, and I could never move armies far enough or fast enough to hold it together. There's just not enough building options.
I understand EB's commitment to historical accuracy--moreover, I respect it and wish to maintain it. At the same time, however, I wouldn't want that commitment to sacrifice hours more enjoyment I could have from taking a barbarian tribe and "civilizing" them. And so this is what I propose (although, bear in mind, I have no clue if this is possible)--a system of "imitation" structures that would allow factions that did not have buildings of a certain type to construct replicas for their cities that functioned approximately 3/4 as well as they did for factions that possessed them as default, provided these factions conquered provinces that had these structures in them and held them long enough to put a government in place. The "imitation" part of this, of course, shows that historically the faction in question never learned to produce these structures, and therefore preserves historical accuracy.
So let's say Rome has a coliseum in and a highway system in it, both items that the Sweboz have never seen before. If the Sweboz conquer it and hold it long enough to set up a government there, they will be able to construct imitation Coliseums and Highways in all of their settlements, that function approximately 75% as well as they would for Rome--they will also cost more to build, but may cost less time to make (or more--if this is slated for implementation I leave it fully to the EB team). As an empire travels around the world, it will gain more and more structures that it can imitate--Bhuddist stupas from India, Hellenic theaters, and so on and so forth.
This system grants real cultural rewards to conquest, not to mention adding in a totally new dimension of gameplay and tactics. Conquering civilized cultures could boast massive benefits for all factions, even other civilized cultures. They would become harder to destroy, but now much more worthwhile to target, as their methods of infrastructure, trade, and entertainment can help quickly expand your empire.
If it's impossible to implement this system based upon individual settlements' buildings, perhaps it could be done regionally? Control a certain key settlement and imitation structures are unlocked (Rome, Athens, Alexandria, Carthage, etc.).
I firmly believe that the implementation of a system like this, by any means and under any conditions, is the step necessary to make EB2 the most popular Classic-period mod, and therefore I beg the EB team to consider its implementation if they do not already have similar ideas of their own.
/IDEASYea, I know that was a ton of stuff. And yea, I know probably more than half of it has already been discussed. Yes, I know most of it's outlandish. Yes, I know most/all won't be implemented. I figured I should try to lend a hand anyway, and provide as much information about my ideas as possible. No, I was not being overly optimistic by giving figures--I was giving them to help the team come to a decision, because I realize that this mod is already in-dev and I don't want to make them wait to decide for so long that it's no longer feasible, if it even is now.
With the disclaimer aside, I hoped you all liked my concepts! These are just a few I had written down and some stuff that came to my head, there are likely one or two that I've forgotten to include, but I'll likely make a new thread with them sometime a few weeks down the road after I get to know the community better. Assuming you all are less angry than the few threads I've seen suggest (>_>) my apologies for all the disclaimers, but I hate being treated like the new guy. I'm sure you guys know the feeling. Oh, and my apologies if I started sounding a bit more forceful as I went on, my first day of college is tomorrow and I was getting progressively more tired as I was writing this up.
Feel free to comment on anything and everything--and please, members of the EB team, if you guys read over this, tell me why my ideas won't work. I'd love to hear the technical details, even if I won't understand half of it.
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by Daco-Roman
.
I gess we have to wait and see what the team is planing 
