Sub-Mod Idea--Historical Venetian Arsenal

[Ren the Unclean]

After reading quite a bit about Venetian military history, it has always bothered me to see the Venetian military in MTWII (and SS) use the classic castle & barracks tree as the basis for military unit availability and recruitment. Unique among most of Europe's cities, Venice was famous for its Great Arsenal. Through most of the 13th, 14th, and 15th centuries, the Arsenal of Venice was the main recruitment, training, and equipment production center for the Venetian army and navy. It was famous throughout all of Europe at the time.

Ragusa (which in MTWII and SS is the most develoepd Venetian fortress at beginning of game) was historically mostly a strategic port and naval yard during the years of Venetian occupation. According to historical sources, there is no reason to believe that Ragusa was ever a significant source for recruiting and equipping Venetian troops.

I would suggest changing Venice's recruitment system for greater accuracy:

1) Change the recruitment system in EDB so that mostly only levy troops and regional AOR troops are available to Venice at castles. But provide castles with high free upkeep.

2) Create a custom building in Venice called the "Arsenal of Venice", perhaps with a second (higher) tier called "The Great Venetian Arsenal." This building should be the basis for all recruitment of Venice's top tier and unique indigenous units, gun powder and seige units, as well as war galleys.

I know this gives Venice the advantage of building or developing just one building in order to recruit a variety of types of units. but it also gives Venice the disadvantage of only being able to recruit key unit types in the city of Venice itself.

In my opinion, this is far more realistic than being able to recruit Venetian Heavy Infantry and other indigenous units everywhere BUT (ironically) in the city of Venice!

Anyone want to jump in on this idea or share an opinion?

[Serbian Hussar]

I think it's a great idea. Venice is one of my favorite factions and this will improve its campaigns greatly. Cross this with my map submod, and Venice will be my No.1 favorite faction for sure

[Ren the Unclean]

SH,

Thanks for the input. I have played with minor edits to EDU and EDB in the past, but I have never added a new building before. I am going to do some research this week and if I can figure this out, I will make a submod available for download.

(if anyone reading this can help with making a new building, or point me in the right direction, the help would be most appreciated.)

[Silver Legionary]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=221102 is one thread I found that might help...

[Ichon]

This is another example to me that recommends a single settlement type. I would prefer a system where all cities could produce roster units regulated by population size for pool refill rates. Then castles could be made into administrative regions for far distant areas that had more public order bonus but could recruit only AOR troops but still build most trade buildings etc.

[Ren the Unclean]

I am also considering removing the Venetian Longbows and adding a new elite crossbowman. From what I can gather, the Venetians were also known for their expert crossbowmen who trained with a crossbow for their entire life. I cannot, however, find any references to longbows.

If someone knows where the Venetian longbow reference comes from, please let me know.

[Caesar Clivus]

Which Venetian units are you referring to (i.e. longbow units)?

[Jean=A=Luc]

Which Venetian units are you referring to (i.e. longbow units)?

The "Venetian Archer", the heavily armoured one.

[Ren the Unclean]

Which Venetian units are you referring to (i.e. longbow units)?

"Venetian Archers" - I may be wrong on the in-game bow type. It may be a composite bow. Either way, I can't find historical references with direct or even suggested support for a class of Venetian indigenous "elite" archers. Most of the sources I've been reading seem to support better the idea of an elite crossbow cadre.

If someone has good sources otherwise, please let me know. (I'm by no means a scholar on the issue, just very interested and researching the best I can.)

[Serbian Hussar]

There had been Venetian Archers.

[GiddeeUpp]

The venetian archers use a composite bow picked up from the east i think.

[Ichon]

I think the tradition started in naval battles where Venetian archers were posted to the masts and high points of the ship. Its difficult to crank a crossbow in such positions while composite bows aren't good on ship with the damp. I think they did use some type of longbow or perhaps recurve bow that had something besides glue and sinew so maybe not quite as strong as longbow or eastern composite but stronger than a shortbow. I've only read about it in a few places though so its not well documented.

Italian factions were certainly more famous for crossbows but archers were still used for naval battles until handguns became prevalent.

[Gogolometro]

Great ideea about arsenal. About pesante archers and the militia pavise crossbows, I think they can stay were they are. Both are usefull and historical. I love the ideea of faction specific and retricted to one location. The Venice is the real oponent of byzantines, and finally won. Maybe this can be seen in their system too.

[Serbian Hussar]

For heavy crossbowmen you can use Gasmuloi, they fit right in. Just change their name to Venetian Crossbowmen or somethin'.


And here is a picture of Arsenal. It might be useful to you.

[Caesar Clivus]

Adding the Arsenal is something I've been meaning to do to ages

[Ren the Unclean]

Thanks everybody.

I have been working through some the tutorials out there. I am about 50% done with my edits to EDB. I still need to address gunpowder units and ships. However, if someone knowledgable could look at the following entry and let me know if it looks right, I'd be most appreciative.

NOTE: I should probably make a hidden resource specific to the Arsenal so it cannot be built in other cities owned by the Venetians. But I cannot find the location in the files to add new hidden resources. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
building venetian_arsenal
{
levels venetian_arsenal
{
venetian_arsenal city requires factions { venice, }
{
capability
{
recruit_pool "Venetian Heavy Infantry" 1 1 5 0 requires factions { venice, }
recruit_pool "Venetian Archers" 1 0.67 4 0 requires factions { venice, }
recruit_pool "SE Bodyguard" 1 0.05 1 0 requires factions { venice, }
recruit_pool "Pavise Crossbow Militia" 1 1 4 0 requires factions { venice, }
law_bonus bonus 1
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1
free_upkeep bonus 3
}
material stone
construction 12
cost 19000
settlement_min large_town
upgrades
{
}
}
}
plugins
{
}
}
--------------------------------------------------------------

I'll upload the TGA images (#southern_european_venetian_arsenal.tga and #southern_european_venetian_arsenal_constructed) somewhere tomorrow so you can see them. (I think they came out pretty good).

[Caesar Clivus]

You have to add the hidden resource in descr_regions.txt in SS6.3\data\world\maps\base. Then delete map.rwm in the same folder to get the new resource into the game (the next time you start a campaign, it'll take a while to load but this is normal and only happens once). Then you have to add it to the list of hidden resources at the top of the EDB.

Now you'll have remember to also copy your updates into the campaign backup folders under SS6.3\data\campaign. Remember to also copy across the new map.rwm files once the game has rebuilt them.

[Dominick]

Just to say... Ragusa wasnt under total Venetian rule at the start period, I dont think it ever was, they gained Dalmatia much later in the period, when they bought it from the Hungarian king. Ragusa (Dubrovnik) broke from the Venetians (they were limiting Ragusa's oversea trading) in the late middle ages and started prospering. I dont like it how Croatia/Venetian rule is portrayed here. The region of Dalmatia is actually much smaller (half of Bosnia and Croatia is included in it in the mod). Croatia (region) is too small and Raska too big (a lot of Bosnia in it).

As for givin' some power and historical accuracy to Venice, DO EEEEET. I like playing as them. But having possessions in Croatia feels wrong. I wanna god damn fight for dat. Or pay Hungary for it after they conquer it before me xD

[Serbian Hussar]

Just to say... Ragusa wasnt under total Venetian rule at the start period, I dont think it ever was, they gained Dalmatia much later in the period, when they bought it from the Hungarian king. Ragusa (Dubrovnik) broke from the Venetians (they were limiting Ragusa's oversea trading) in the late middle ages and started prospering. I dont like it how Croatia/Venetian rule is portrayed here. The region of Dalmatia is actually much smaller (half of Bosnia and Croatia is included in it in the mod). Croatia (region) is too small and Raska too big (a lot of Bosnia in it).

As for givin' some power and historical accuracy to Venice, DO EEEEET. I like playing as them. But having possessions in Croatia feels wrong. I wanna god damn fight for dat. Or pay Hungary for it after they conquer it before me xD

Sponsored Ad: Try my map submod. I think I've changed all of those things you have implied.