On taxes and slavery

[Prince of Judah]

Matmohair,

Sorry but your argument that Non-Muslims paid fewer taxes is a crock of . The "Zakat" has nothing to do with normal taxes. If we assume that the Zakat is used appropriately, IT DOES NOT go to the government. It is supposed to be "charity" (for Muslims only of course). Christians paid taxes, and THEN On TOP of that they paid the Jyzia. It is a historical fact that Christians were treated as less than human because of the restrictions placed upon them. They could not prostylitize, they could not build or repair churches. Often they were forced to wear distinctive clothing. They had little standing in courts of law. The Nubians were slowly impoverished because they for FORCED to pay taxes BECAUSE they were Christian. They paid, not only in Gold, silver, crops, cattle, and many other things, but they were REQUIRED to provide HUMAN SLAVES.

[Harith]

Matmohair,

Sorry but your argument that Non-Muslims paid fewer taxes is a crock of . The "Zakat" has nothing to do with normal taxes. If we assume that the Zakat is used appropriately, IT DOES NOT go to the government. It is supposed to be "charity" (for Muslims only of course). Christians paid taxes, and THEN On TOP of that they paid the Jyzia. It is a historical fact that Christians were treated as less than human because of the restrictions placed upon them. They could not prostylitize, they could not build or repair churches. Often they were forced to wear distinctive clothing. They had little standing in courts of law. The Nubians were slowly impoverished because they for FORCED to pay taxes BECAUSE they were Christian. They paid, not only in Gold, silver, crops, cattle, and many other things, but they were REQUIRED to provide HUMAN SLAVES.

Chrsitians living in Muslim empire had to pay only Jizya, another word for tax, which was a payment for the guranteed protection if were threatened. The Muslims had to pay to the government as well. If a Muslim didn't pay, he will sufffer consequences.

Read about the first Rashidun Caliph, Abu Bakr, and the Ridda Wars which one of its main reasons was Muslims refusing to pay Zakat.

& what does this have to do with weaponry and military structure ?!

dunno lol

[matmohair1]

Christians paid taxes, and THEN On TOP of that they paid the Jyzia. It is a historical fact that Christians were treated as less than human because of the restrictions placed upon them.

" He Who Lives in a Glass House Shouldn't Throw Stones at Others"

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They could not prostylitize, they could not build or repair churches.
Often they were forced to wear distinctive clothing. They had little standing in courts of law.

that's actually the Justinian roman code which was never enforced in the region
ironically it was adopted in medieval Europe and up until the 16th century

this is what really happened in the middle east

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Nubians were slowly impoverished because they for FORCED to pay taxes BECAUSE they were Christian. They paid, not only in Gold, silver, crops, cattle, and many other things, but they were REQUIRED to provide HUMAN SLAVES.

we all know it was Western European Colonial Capitalism that enslaved Africa
the third world didn't create its self

non-European slavery around the world allowed for the freeing of slaves and their assimilation into society
they live exactly the same as any free person and can even be granted higher positions in government
they can be kings or business men or whatever they wished to be

a good example is the freed slaves who where
adopted by native American clans such as the Cherokee & others
some even became chieftains such as chief Billy Bowlegs III



Members of the Creek (Muscogee) Nation in Oklahoma around 1877. Note the mixed European, African and Native American ancestry.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

this was never the case in Europian held territories
where even in the 20th century, apartheid laws still dominated American & South African politics
and is still evident today in Rightwing anti-emigration laws around the world
- something unthinkable in precolonial societies

therefor, the real impoverisher was colonialism



can we now quit the faith & culture bashing and stick on topic !!!

[Jugurta]

Matmohair,

Sorry but your argument that Non-Muslims paid fewer taxes is a crock of . The "Zakat" has nothing to do with normal taxes. If we assume that the Zakat is used appropriately, IT DOES NOT go to the government. It is supposed to be "charity" (for Muslims only of course). Christians paid taxes, and THEN On TOP of that they paid the Jyzia. It is a historical fact that Christians were treated as less than human because of the restrictions placed upon them. They could not prostylitize, they could not build or repair churches. Often they were forced to wear distinctive clothing. They had little standing in courts of law. The Nubians were slowly impoverished because they for FORCED to pay taxes BECAUSE they were Christian. They paid, not only in Gold, silver, crops, cattle, and many other things, but they were REQUIRED to provide HUMAN SLAVES.

Same overused argument, im still not very convinced that taxing someone is a very horrible act by the middle ages standards, it was just a tax, no underlying racism or intolerance in it, if they were intolerant they would have just cut off your head, again remember this the middle ages, you are looking at something with today and current standards, and you don't even put it in perspective with the witch hunt, intolerance and violence that what was going in christian Europe at the same period.

Addressing slavery, its a cultural factor nothing to do with Islam, slavery existed in the world before Islam, and the prophet tried to fight it by stating for example that all men are equal no matter their skin color, also slavery didnt have the same meaning the Europeans gave it later, many slaves in the Muslim world rose by their own merit to become rulers and kings, for example the Mameluke of Egypt.

[Dago Red]

No sense in getting in a pissing match about European v Middle Eastern slavery. There is no defense of European slavery obviously, but at the same time, claiming it's worse only seems to come off as a defense of slavery in the middle east. "Our slavery was better." There should be no defense of either ffs.

many slaves in the Muslim world rose by their own merit to become rulers and kings, for example the Mameluke of Egypt.

That was more of a revolt, the former rulers and people of Egypt didn't lay out a carpet of roses and vote them into power.

[DMX23]

Matmohair,

Sorry but your argument that Non-Muslims paid fewer taxes is a crock of . The "Zakat" has nothing to do with normal taxes. If we assume that the Zakat is used appropriately, IT DOES NOT go to the government. It is supposed to be "charity" (for Muslims only of course). Christians paid taxes, and THEN On TOP of that they paid the Jyzia. It is a historical fact that Christians were treated as less than human because of the restrictions placed upon them. They could not prostylitize, they could not build or repair churches. Often they were forced to wear distinctive clothing. They had little standing in courts of law. The Nubians were slowly impoverished because they for FORCED to pay taxes BECAUSE they were Christian. They paid, not only in Gold, silver, crops, cattle, and many other things, but they were REQUIRED to provide HUMAN SLAVES.

My great grandfather leaved spain just because he was Muslim So i don't think christians were more ''humans''

[Ichon]

Slavery as an institution was not against either Christian or Islamic teachings... except for enslaving fellow members of the faith. Christian teaching do speak against slave trading however but seem to encourage enslavement of enemies.

Slaves were an acceptable reward for victory in battle for must ancient cultures and seem to be explicitly mentioned as a reward for Muslims but there were many rules for how to treat slaves which for the time period was advanced but compared to current understandings seems unjust.

Although for many practical purposes serfs weren't that different from slaves in their lowest form. At least in Islam slaves and former slaves could rise quite high while that did not really happen in Europe after Rome fell and even prior to that was very rare. Islam at least originally was a bit more of a meritocracy. Probably because the Arabs were themselves not necessarily considered of the higher classes when they began the expansion of the Ummah.

Though eventually appeals to Christianity and the fact that Christianity came from Judaism which was a religion where the original faithful were slaves themselves led to abolishment of enslavement in the west(except for slaves born into it). Finally even slaves born into slavery were forced to be freed but it took major wars to prove the point.

In Muslim regions slavery continued for quite awhile as slave trading was condoned by Muhammad. Otherwise it seems both Christians and Muslims treated slaves better or worse as their individual natures dictated.

[Harith]

Slavery as an institution was not against either Christian or Islamic teachings... except for enslaving fellow members of the faith. Christian teaching do speak against slave trading however but seem to encourage enslavement of enemies.

Slaves were an acceptable reward for victory in battle for must ancient cultures and seem to be explicitly mentioned as a reward for Muslims but there were many rules for how to treat slaves which for the time period was advanced but compared to current understandings seems unjust.

Although for many practical purposes serfs weren't that different from slaves in their lowest form. At least in Islam slaves and former slaves could rise quite high while that did not really happen in Europe after Rome fell and even prior to that was very rare. Islam at least originally was a bit more of a meritocracy. Probably because the Arabs were themselves not necessarily considered of the higher classes when they began the expansion of the Ummah.

Though eventually appeals to Christianity and the fact that Christianity came from Judaism which was a religion where the original faithful were slaves themselves led to abolishment of enslavement in the west(except for slaves born into it). Finally even slaves born into slavery were forced to be freed but it took major wars to prove the point.

In Muslim regions slavery continued for quite awhile as slave trading was condoned by Muhammad. Otherwise it seems both Christians and Muslims treated slaves better or worse as their individual natures dictated.

where the hell did u get that???? condoned by Muhamed (peace be upon him)??? Muhammed (peace be upon him) ordered all of the Muslims to free the Slaves... read the biography about abu Bakr and how he freeded Bilal (the slave) whos also a Sahabi. There is even a hadith that says "our master (Abu Bakr) freed our master (Bilal)"

Islam is against slavery in all ways whether trade, in house or as a worker. Muhamed (peace be upon him) never allowed any Muslim to keep any slave, however, not every Muslim is a good one and not every Muslim is ready to give up his business for God. Muahmed (peace be upon him) even ordered his men to not damage or hurt a tree when they occupy a settlement, he banned sacking and pillaging and opposed any barbaric methods of the Romans or Persians.

Get this, Slavery in all ways is haram in Islam... some people in the Arab world go to prison for paying maids or workers low budgets or mistreating them if were caught.

As for Christianity, even though I am not sure but I can assume that they too ban it.

Please dont make any assumptions or provide any incorrect info that u might have picked up from wikipedia or heard from someone.

[Ichon]

Well this isn't the place to such an argument but I would say it depends on how you interpret what you read and where you place the emphasis since Bible and Qur'ān both have contextual statements about this subject.

[Harith]

Well this isn't the place to such an argument but I would say it depends on how you interpret what you read and where you place the emphasis since Bible and Qur'ān both have contextual statements about this subject.

well If u ever have read the Quran, u will interpet that slavery is forbidden

[Dago Red]

Otherwise it seems both Christians and Muslims treated slaves better or worse as their individual natures dictated.

Of course, it's always the case. Christianity and Islam both sprung from Judaism. All children from the same family bickering amongst themselves.

[Tureuki]

Just in word

[Jugurta]

If Islam treated Christians so horribly why are there still up until today thriving christian communities all over the middle east, and why is it that most crusaders ended up assimilated and stayed instead of going back to Europe ? and how do you complain about a tax with a straight face, knowing what hapened to the muslims and jews of spain under the rule of a catholic, with the blessing of that warlord sitting in Rome and calling him self christian, while sending armies to burn and pillage the land that the Christ is born in

About slavery, this something cultural, Islam is but a layer of what make an individual who he is, in some African countries Islam even mixed with animist religion, some cultures have some crazy stuff, and Islam don't forget we have no pope or central authority, religion is a personal matter, and people just go ahead and do all kind of mixing, Mohamed tried to fight slavery but this is something you cant change overnight, if i even remember well in the last sermon of mahomet he said that there is no difference between a black and a white, its around 6:00 on that video

[Toho]

i was actually permitted to enter those jewish tombs in Hamadan and i have to say they were very impressive. there was a small stone door that took two men to slide open and it was so small that i had to crawl myself in which was apparently the pourpouse to make myself humble in the presence of the holy people buried there. this whole religious hostility and restrictions are beyond ridiculous. grow the up people.

well If u ever have read the Quran, u will interpet that slavery is forbidden

only against other Muslims but in no way is the Muslim slavery ANYTHING close to what the Europeans did to the africans, that was just inhumane, the Muslim slavery was very similar to the Greek one if memory serves. there were rights and protections laws and not to mention you could buy your own freedom, basically it was like a contract. most slaves out of the slavery had actually learned a lot of stuff when they were freed and then could start a prosperous life.
hell sign me up as a slave if thats the only way for me to get a training in a trade so i can make a living afterwards.

[Yesman101]

i was actually permitted to enter those jewish tombs in Hamadan and i have to say they were very impressive. there was a small stone door that took two men to slide open and it was so small that i had to crawl myself in which was apparently the pourpouse to make myself humble in the presence of the holy people buried there. this whole religious hostility and restrictions are beyond ridiculous. grow the up people.



only against other Muslims but in no way is the Muslim slavery ANYTHING close to what the Europeans did to the africans, that was just inhumane, the Muslim slavery was very similar to the Greek one if memory serves. there were rights and protections laws and not to mention you could buy your own freedom, basically it was like a contract. most slaves out of the slavery had actually learned a lot of stuff when they were freed and then could start a prosperous life.
hell sign me up as a slave if thats the only way for me to get a training in a trade so i can make a living afterwards.

Here, Here! I would rep you but I got no rep

[Harith]

only against other Muslims

Yes, however it is very limited to certain conditions and circumstances which greatly limits slavery of non-Muslims. Not to mention it is strongly recommended to not enslave.

[Dago Red]

Strongly recommended, that's a laugh. These religious doctrines are just too outdated.

[Harith]

Strongly recommended, that's a laugh. These religious doctrines are just too outdated.

no, it is just my lack of interpreting meanings. A more reliable way of interpreting is better not to do so... sort of like divorce... God despise it, but has permitted it since it is a must in some situations. Though, it is advised to try and solve the dispute.

Anyway, is it possible to implement a feature where u can keep ur prisoners?? or a more wicked idea is to turn them into Ghulams or Mamlukes with less morale. The proficiency depends on their original stat... of course it can be lowered to make it more fair.

Or, if this cant be implemented.. then maybe turning them into labour slaves in which they turn into a unit.. like a merchant... and u send them to settlements or armies to decrease construction turns. for instance... once u collect lets say 400 prisoners.. u get the choice of acquiring this unit. However, these units unguarded are eager to escape.. therefore a huge loyalty decrease should be done. Also, u cant buy another faction's salve... u can only bribe them to freedom...

[megalitho]

I remember Civilisazion III where the player had the ability to use slave hunters. The captured slaves were used to increase building speed or wealth of cities.


Was it a common practise for muslim generals to take prisoners and send them to slavery in medieval times? I remember thatsome captured christian knights became muslims.

[Harith]

Was it a common practise for muslim generals to take prisoners and send them to slavery in medieval times? I remember thatsome captured christian knights became muslims.

I remember reading about the crusade and the battles between Richard the Lionheart and Saladin. From what I understood, it was a common strategy to keep ur prisoners for later and either ransom or sometimes offer either conversion or execution/ maybe slavery.

This method was used by many armies Christian and Muslim.... as for the Mongols.... it was death all the way lol