Kaunitz Project [moved over to NTW engine!]

[JaM]

I'd say with this level of simplitisation as it is in ETW, go for linear..

[wangrin]

Figure were compiled results from experiences conducted in Strasbourg (1764) and Vincennes (1822).
I suppose their purpose was to define what projectile was the best depending of distance.
So, 300-400 meters was the maximum range for canister use.

This other figure show penetration effect for distance between 20 and 70 meters :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Of course, it didn't give you information about spreading of shots...

Two information could be useful for you :

• The spread of shot was 1/10 of the distance (S=0.1xD), that mean it was suppose linear (10 meters : spread of shot equal to 1 meter, 50 meters : spread of shot equal to 5 meters, etc.) ;
• You can first figure from "CANNON'S BULLETS FIRE PROBABILITIES" to figure what dispersion could look like)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If we use the S=D*0.1, spread shot should be 60 meters when distance is 600 meters.
But shots didn't have the same speed (more the shot veer from axis, lesser its speed is, so it fall faster on the ground), this explain why effective spread of shot is between 16 and 20 meters.
But the S=D*0.1 should be good enough for distances shorter than 300 meters.


Don't forget to divide accuracy by half because men surface represent half of target surface.

[Didz]

Don't forget to divide accuracy by half because men surface represent half of target surface.

I'm assuming that if the modders can get the beaten zone correct then the hits will take care of themselves.

[Kaunitz]

Sorry that I can't take part in the discussion right now, for I'm really busy in real life and I'm desperately trying to get wangrins and ACMilans - who have generously given me permission - excellent units to work. I'll be more responsive next week.

Concerning the units:

I'm struggling to incorporate only selected units from NPI and 7YW into my mod, as I want to give every of the major factions (Habsburg, Prussia, France, Russia, Great Britain) a set of basis unit types only (light infantry, line infantry, grenadiers, cuirassiers, dragoons, hussars, heavy/medium/light artillery + howitzer, generals' HQ) - i.e.: for each unit type only a selection of one unit/uniform. NPI and 7YW contain much more factions and units than I need though, and I want to keep the mod as slim as possible. Players shouldn't have to download 1,5GB for only a few new models and textures. Therefore, I wanted to get only selected units from those unit packs into my mod. But this turned out to be a complicated issue. It took me a whole day to get a single grenadier unit to work (adding DB enties, textures, models for the soldiers/officers/drummers, etc. for this unit). Yesterday I wanted to add some more units, but the game crashes and finding the errors consumes an incredible amount of time. Also, from a modders perspective, a huge mod like the 7YW pack is rather impractical a it takes such a long time to save whenever I make some changes to the unit stats/battle mechanics. And I'm going to split up the long and confusing single unit list into faction-specific unit lists.

So, if I want to get a version ready for December, I'll either have to find someone who's better in these things than me, or I'll have to stick to the vanilla units .
Some previews:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

wangrins Hungarian Infantry (if I can get it to work, that is...):


(I've slightly altered the texture, so that the uniforms' colours are not that bright)



(The Prussians will look more light-blue as well in the release - if I can get them to work - more like this:





(a line of three bataillons engaging)

Also, I'm reworking unit icons for ageod's Rise of Prussia. I will ask for permission to use them as unit cards in this mod as well. A preview:


(Grenzer/Hungarian regiment hatman/German regiment hatman/German regiment grenadier/3pdr/6pdr/12pdr // Prussian grenadier)
And the latest addition in increased size on black background:

[Didz]

So, you decided to go with the concept that the blue dye would fade in Prussian uniforms the same way it did in the French Napoleonic ones.

[Kaunitz]

Well, kind of, yes. I haven't done any particular research on that topic other than looking at the stuff in the museum and at the battle paintings. I will compare the "fade-out" uniforms to the "shiny like an uniform plate"-version and decide which one looks more reasonable. I want to get rid of the extremely colourful overall look of the game.

I haven't forgotten about the canister issue. It's just that I was so happy about wangrins and ACMilans permissions and immediatly tried to implement the units, which didn't really work - and now I want to get the units right before I continue with the battle mechanics. I'm going to pick up this issue later on, and all the information here has already helped me a lot. In the end, I think we're already discussing finer details than the engine would allow anyway.

@ Primergy: Yes, it's really a nuisance. And I just can't figure out what I've done wrong! It took me about a full day to get the only one unit working. Maybe I'll leave it to Prussia and Austria only for December's version.

PS: Wangrin or ACMIlan, I have some contemporary pictures/plans of the famous Shuvalov howitzers/unícorns if you're interested. The plans of this "secret" weapon were sent to the Habsburg court (along with some howitzers) during the war. It seems as if they were never used by the Habsburg army though.

And I've noticed that the Habsburg banner used in the 7YW/sponge mod stems from Josephs' II. time, instead of Maria Theresias'. I will see if I can provide you with a correct banner. The big banners look really great, by the way!

[Kaunitz]

I'm going to spend this weekend in Berlin (NHL, anyone? ), the capital of the Prussian arch-enemy .

Maybe there are some wise people around who can help me with the units? I've uploaded the broken version in which I tried to enable "euro_line_infantry1", "euro_grenadiers_bearskin_austria", "HU_INF1" and 3 types of artillery for austria (all of them are from sponge/7YW mod). The grenadiers actually worked before I've added the other units, although the textures on their muskets seemed strange (different atlas?). As for the animations: I've included the spontoon-animation into my already existing Kaunitz-animation file. I'd be very thankful for any hint or tip where I've commited blunder.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20862144/Kauges.7z

I'll be back on Monday!

[Primergy]

Yesterday I wanted to add some more units, but the game crashes and finding the errors consumes an incredible amount of time.
So, if I want to get a version ready for December, I'll either have to find someone who's better in these things than me, or I'll have to stick to the vanilla units .

Yeah, can get quite annoying since you have to work with several Tables, but don't give up. AcMilans and Wangrins Units are looking fantastic in those realistic formations

[Didz]

Well its reasonable to assume that a uniform in a museum has faded in the same way as it would have in the field. It was the nature of the dye that determined the behaviour, and I know that the French blue dye was notorious for fading. I'm still pursuing the canister issue, but its getting complicated now by a lack of consistency in historic test reports. The best information I have on dispersion so far, is that 75% of the balls in the charge spread at a rate of 1 in 10 downrange. So, at 300 metres 75% of the balls had dispersed in a circle with a diameter of 30 metres. What I haven't found out is what happened to the other 25%.

[wangrin]

I'm working on French artillery right now but I'm very interesting if you have documents on Austrian and Russian artillery as I will certainly work on their artillery after the French one.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

About Austrian's banner, maybe something like this :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Tango12345]

What I haven't found out is what happened to the other 25%.

Hit the ground/disintergrated? (honest suggestion, I'm not taking the mick)

[Didz]

Hit the ground/disintergrated? (honest suggestion, I'm not taking the mick)

Logic would suggest that as the dispersion pattern would have no concpet of up or down, left or right then a percentage of the balls would fly in every possible direction. So, yes some would certainly head groundwards, some would head skywards, and some would fly off the left or right, and every possible angle inbetween.

All we know at the moment is that 75% supposedly flew down range in a reasonably straight line for at least 300 yardsand apparently at much as 800 yards. Although depending on whose tests one believes only 5%-30% of them actually hit anything when they arrived. But as all the tests start at 300 yards from the gun we have no data on how far and in what direction the other 25% of the balls travelled, whether those that flew high eventually returned to earth further downrange and hit something, or at what point down range the widest dispersion damage was achieved from the balls that flew to the left or right.

[bloody bill]

I would think that larger arty pieces would fire more like buck shot. It would have a tighter pattern and would be devastating up to 3/4 of its max range. I think if this topic gets to involved it will become a nightmare that will always be a headache as we will probably never truly know the exact ballistics of the arty as every country used different sized and types of shot. I have seen live fire exercises with 12lb Napoleon at Fort Stevens, it was a civil war era gun that shot effective canister up to 500 yards on a 50 yard wide paper target representing an enemy platoon. At least in the test all balls that hit the target were within 30 yards of each other. Also at close range of around 50 yards canister went through six gel targets before stopping in the seventh.

[Dee Jay]

HEY KAUNITZ

Just to let you know my new thread is here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=487090

That's all I wanted to say

[Didz]

That would make sense, as at 500 yards most of the peripheral shot would have dropped due to their lower velocity, so the balls that left the barrel on the most direct path will naturally carry the farthest. BTW: The composition of canister is pretty clearly recorded and we know how it was packaged into charges so the issue is not really about the nature of canister itself, merely how it dispersed when it left the barrel. And end there it seems that most records agree on the dispersion of the main discharge at 300 yards or more down range, its just the first 300 yards that seem to remain a mystery, which is odd seeing as canister was rarely used beyond this range anyway.

[bloody bill]

That would make sense, as at 500 yards most of the peripheral shot would have dropped due to their lower velocity, so the balls that left the barrel on the most direct path will naturally carry the farthest. BTW: The composition of canister is pretty clearly recorded and we know how it was packaged into charges so the issue is not really about the nature of canister itself, merely how it dispersed when it left the barrel. And end there it seems that most records agree on the dispersion of the main discharge at 300 yards or more down range, its just the first 300 yards that seem to remain a mystery, which is odd seeing as canister was rarely used beyond this range anyway.

Sure, I think the biggest difference with arty was the same as the infantry. The Black Powder used by all the countries was very different. It is known that Russian BP was horrible with alot of miss fire happening. They used very poor saltpeder.

[wangrin]

Sorry but, is the multiplayer_version download link broken ?

File not found, you will be redirected to http://www.gamefront.com

[Kaunitz]

Hi everyone! I’m back.

I’ve made up my mind that it is by far too time-consuming for me to implement the NPI and 7YW unit packs into the next version. So, unfortunately, I have to revert to the vanilla units and concentrate my efforts on battle mechanics and minor aesthetical improvements. After I’ve got all the mechanics right, and in case I still have interest in the game, I will occupy myself with the unit models and skins. If anyone is interested in helping me with the units, I’d be very thankful.

With this alleviation, or rather omission, I hope I will be able to release the next version in November. The main improvements don’t come as a surprise for anyone who is following the thread: only 3 ranks will able to fire (more of a fix than an improvement), better representation of bayonet charges, complete artillery overhaul (thanks to all the participants in the discussion!), no square formation anymore/ reworked infantry-cavalry engagements, howitzers. Plus there will be some “aesthetical”/immersion improvements (no crouching officers anymore, changed some ui-colours, sounds, new radar map icons, new “cohesion”-labels for the units’ fatigue status, changed chevron-design to fit their role as “combat fatigue indicators”, no kaboom-canonball-impacts,…).

The big three pending issues remain 1) the unit models/skins, which are linked to 2) a bigger faction and unit variety; and 3) the videos (frontend & intro).

@wangrin

The banner shown by you looks like a “Ordinairfahne” of the 1745-type as it bears the initials FC IM (Franciscus corregens, imperator) and the emblem of Tuscany-Lorraine, refering to Francis I. But then it should have a yellow, not a white field (the white Leibfahne is supposed to show a madonna immaculata - i.e. without the Jesus baby - not the imperial eagle – I don’t know why the kronoskaf article gives the reverse side of the banner the eagle…). I’d rather go for the last banner shown on the kronoskaf site (the yellow one). Statistically, we'd see more of these yellow banners than white banners: http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.p...fantry_Colours Anyway, both versions on the kronoskaf page are better than the banner with Josephs’ II initials on it, which is in use in the mod right now. But it’s a very tiny issue, really.

I will send you a PM with Shuvalovs howitzers in the course of this week! As for the download-link, it seems as if gamefront deletes the link once it hasn’t been downloaded for some time. I will set up a new link this week.

[wangrin]

Thank you very much Kaunitz

I prefer to use Leibfahne (or "drapeau colonel"), it's the lesser evil since it's not possible to assign different flags depending of unit. I sometime hate CA...
But what flag do you prefer : Leibfahne or Ordinairfahne ?
If I have a good model, it should not be a very long work to create it.

[Primergy]

I sometime hate CA...

Me2... the Flags were one of the biggest dissapointments to me :/.