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  1. #1
    Kaunitz's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Here are some screenshots to give a better impression of the battle (plus some additional remarks). You can cut it short if you look at the radar maps.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Here you can see the Prussian centre (see radar map) fighting against my diversonary force. Notice that by this time, Bill couldn't see all the troops that are coming in the background (left). And I couldn't see that he had a second line behind his first! On the radar map, you can see that my force is concentrated on Bills left flank.


    The flank attack is coming. Not in a very coordinated manner though. Originally, I was marching too far to the right, so once I detected Bills flank, I hurried my force back to the centre, which resulted in this "march" column which arrived on the battlefield bit by bit rather than as a line ready to strike. It was a bad flank attack, I have to admit...It was a kind of small scale "Leuthen gone wrong"


    View from behind Bills right wing. I had a short glimpse on the second line here. To the left, my grenadier battalion is opening the flank attack.


    Here the flank attack is in full swing. You can see how Bills second line moves to the left to counter my attack (two battalions on the left hand side). His army is split in two by the wood.


    You know, you shouldn't advance your battalions in columns...


    There might be a masked battery of 12pdrs around that sends your column flying with the first discharge...Happy enfilading! According to the scale, those 4 12pdr-balls took out 48 men.


    Another view on the flank attack, Bills reserve battalions still keep arriving. In fact, I think my flank attack could have failed horribly because of Bill deploying deep in two lines. After reviewing the replay, it was not the flank attack that prooved to be successfull. In fact I never fully enveloped Bills reinforced flank. Rather, it was the mistake of deploying Jägers in the centre of Bills line that cost him this engagement. You can see the Jägers to the right, between the wood and Bills line.


    Who would succeed and outflank his opponent? My flank attack force keeps trickling, just as Bills reserves. On both sides, the lines grow longer and longer...


    Now here is the crucial moment. The Jägers give way under the impression of artillery fire, opening a wide gap in Bills centre. As he had shifted all his reserves to the left in order to counter the flank attack, I guess he didn't have anything left to fill the gap which was big enough for 2 battalions. Or at least he had nothing close enough while I was already there!


    View from the Austrian backfield


    Now apparently Bill had noticed the gap in his centre (and I was already pushing into the gap). Notice how my line develops into an arrow on the radar map. It seems as if Bill did this strange manoeuvre in order to close the gap and reestablish a conistent line (bad memories of cavalry break-throughs? ). He started to shift his whole left-wing-line of three battalions to the right. This manoevre, carried out under enemy fire, was what actually did the job and break the Prussians. Maybe, if Bill had changed formation first (so that the line had kept its form - basically a column of three files), instead of pivoting all the battalions by 90°, it could have succeeded. It was risky either way. I assume that a lots of threatened-flank-morale mali set in here, and once the first battalion routed, panic spread.


    The Prussian left wing is routing, the Austrians advance. Now, one important factor of the battle was that the Prussian left wing routed "away" from the right wing (in the picture: to the left), so that I had to decide which part of the army I wanted to follow. I chose the unbroken right wing, believing that I'd be able to destroy it with my stronger force before the left wing could rally and re-enter the fight. Well.....The disperse-rally-surround-phenomenon struck me again...the Grenzers I sent after them didn't stop the Prussians from rallying, whereas my attack was severely delayed by the stupid woods....You have to wait until your line is ready before you attack...if one battalion is missing in the centre, you can't advance!


    Push through the centre, capture the gun! The Prussian battalion on the right hand side is not routing. Bill ordered it back, like the rest of his right wing. This turned out to be an excellent decision!


    The captured guns and the flank after the flank attack ...


    The hill of fate and defeat, where the still intact Prussian right wing was to rally around the 12pdrs...


    The Prussian cavalry wins my left flank.


    The Prussian sacrifice. These guys had formed square in order to delay my troops. As you can tell from the carnage, they did a great job!


    The Austrians launch a desperate but uncoordinated attack on the hill. I had no chance to push through the gap between Bills lines. Notice how the centre of my line was delayed by the wood and therefore is lagging behind. You can also see the heap of dead where the Prussian square had made its stand to delay me. To the right of this szene (in the radar-map: south), the rallied Prussian left wing was already advancing.




    The 12pdrs played on the disordered Austrians.


    The final scene before a big part of the Austrians turned tail and General Kaunitz sounded the general retreat. On the right hand side you can see the Prussian left wing closing in. On the left, you can see some Prussian horse that fell in on a routed battalion just a few moments later and took its colours.


    The Austrians are disengaging. We played out the disengagement until I reached the end of the battle map, which was really nice. My Grenzers held the Prussian Jägers at bay, while my grenadiers escorted my 12pdr-artillery train and detered the Cuirassiers that were following and looking only a few hundred yards away...All in all, I think the whole engagement took us about 1,5 - 2 hours.

    the Austrian command ----------------------^
    Last edited by Kaunitz; September 20, 2011 at 07:30 AM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
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  2. #2
    Dee Jay's Avatar I'm gone....
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    ANOTHER GOOD BATTLE REPORT

    I was wondering Kaunitz, have you made any changes to the attacked in front, side and back morale effects ? Because at the moment they are a BIT too high ?

  3. #3

    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Excellent report Kaunitz. The skirmishers that broke in my center had a line unit behind them that did not get to the gap in time and I decided to send it to the hill with my 12lb early instead of waiting or using it to save my guns.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    @ DeeJay: The attacked-in-front-malus doesn't seem to work anyway - Jam told me that it only really works if you use really low morale values for all units. As for the flank- and rear-malus: I'm thinking about it. At the moment they ensure that cavalry battles are over very soon. This comes at the cost of lots of double routs and routs on the pursuit. I will see if I can come up with a different solution for cavalry battles (which are way too bloddy right now anyway!) in the next version. Also in the reported game, Bills cuirassiers routed as well when they surprised my 6pdrs.

    I'm afraid I have to reduce my ETW-activity during the next two weeks. Moreover, the to-do-list for the mod has grown quite long. So the new version won't be out so soon.

    Other issues of the game:

    1) canister balancing (was on my list anyway)
    2) My Grenzers managed to get off a timed volley in this game, which broke a squadron of cuirassiers. I'll see if I can increase the "matchlock misfire rate" which I've attributed to all kind of light infantry even more, so that they wont be able to pull off simultaneous volles (and morale shock) so easily.
    3) I really feel the urge to get rid of the instant square. It makes cavalry useless. What would players do without sqaure? The very restricted arc of infantry fire in this mod means that it can only deliver its fire power to its immediate front. Since fire power would then be the only means against cavalry, players will have to react to cavalry on their flanks by building up a new front, facing the direction of the cavalry. Depending on the formation of the infantry and thanks to the relatively slow movement speed in this mod, this can be a risky affair if you're in line and you start the formation change too late. The cavalry could be there before your infantry is ready to defend itself with musketry. Now, if you form your infantry in a deeper formation, it will be able to react much quicklier. I guess you don't even have to build a full new line. It will be enough if you just change the facing of your makeshift column/square. Even the fire power of this small front should suffice to deter a cavalry attack (in fact all ranks seem to be shooting anyway...). Its just an idea at the moment. Players would be forced to use a formation that can quickly change its front when facing cavalry, and this would be a "deep" formation, resembling a square, not a line. Of course the mechanism does not fit to a real square at all. It would be a work around, and there will be big problems if the square is surrounded for it still only has 1 front side, not 4. In general, the terrain will be of greater importance with this "square"-solution, as you will always need to have your flanks secured if you want to go on the offensive. Otherwise, enemy cavalry can threaten your flank, forcing your whole line to stop if you don't want your line to loose all cohesion.

    @ Bloody Bill: I really think your deployment in two lines had a good chance of resisting my attack, but for your Jägers who were given the task to hold a line in your centre. Artillery, a long range salvo (and mybe also a "flank-thread-malus") were enough to break them with 31 of 34 left.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; September 19, 2011 at 04:57 AM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
    - a modding project for a better representation of XVIIIth century warfare -

  5. #5
    Dee Jay's Avatar I'm gone....
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Nice to see that progress will be made on the mod still

    Also, notice something different about my name colour? And something new under my avatar?

    EDIT: I ALSO GET MY INTERNET BACK TOMORROW

  6. #6
    Kaunitz's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Wow, I bow before you, great Artifex! What new options does this title give to you?

    Do you want me to tune down the saturation of the two guys in your banner again, or do you like them as they are?

    As for the game: I'll be busy the next two weeks. Perhaps I can get in another game on the weekend. If not, you can play with Bloody Bill. But I will still be active in the board.

    Oh, and have I already asked you: is it possible to set the "fear range" lower than about 100 ingame meters in NTW?

    PS: For german readers, Sacha Möbius, Mehr Angst vor dem Offizier als vor dem Feind? Eine mentalitätsgeschichtliche Studie zur preußischen Taktik im Siebenjährigen Krieg (2007) [More fear of the officer than of the enemy? A history of mentality on the Prussian tactics during the Seven Years War] could be quite interesting reading. Its already on its way to me so I will be able to report some of its major points. This book investigates the psyche of the mid 18th century soldier, from the perspective of official reglements and from the perspective of the soldiers' ego-documents (letters, diaries). In the germanophone world, war in the context of daily life (from a soldiers perspective) has caught the attention of academics only recently. I'm really looking forward to it. Judging from the few bits I could gather from reviews, religion still played a large role as a motivation and/or consolation (remember we are speaking of protestant Prussians versus catholic Austrians/French), and linear battles were rarely linear and static.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; September 19, 2011 at 07:21 AM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
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  7. #7
    Dee Jay's Avatar I'm gone....
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Thanks Kaunitz I have access to a few forums now, not sure exactly what there for though, I haven't been to them yet.

    And it's fine, the two guys at the front are supposed to stand out over the background, I even faded the background out a bit so they stood oout more

    And I'm not sure about the fear effect range thing, I will try it out once I get home from school

  8. #8
    Dee Jay's Avatar I'm gone....
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    A queestion for you Kaunitz, are you planning on having Siege Battles in the multiplayer version?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    For gods sake, no! From a historical perspective, siege battles in ETW are broken from scratch. Instead of proper sieges, including the digging of parallell circumvallation-trenches and small zig-zag approachment-trenches, skirmishing (here we would have needed the grenades!) around the covered way (which - like the ditch - is totally lacking in ETWs fortress), we get a fortress that resembles more a medieval city wall than a vauban-style or even a renaissance fortress, and spiderman-soldiers. If the best way to defend a fortress is to abandon the walls and dig in at the "town square", something has definitively gone very wrong...
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
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  10. #10
    Dee Jay's Avatar I'm gone....
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Ok thanks Kaunitz, just checking

    I guess you wont be focusing on Naval Battles either ?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    For some reason I've never played ETWs naval battles in any detail. I assume they can be modeled a bit better than land warfare, and Didz has started a comprehensive thread on the manoeuverability of square-rigged sailing ships which offers some important first information. Still my focus lies on land battles, which provide me with plenty of work. Plus I don't want to read up on this subject (time, effort....). Naval battles will be up to you!
    Last edited by Kaunitz; September 20, 2011 at 03:56 AM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    I was wondering Kaunitz, what exactly does the fear range do ?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Well, you can give units the "scares enemies" ability (unit stats land), you can set the height of this factor "ume concerned unit frightened" (kv morale) and I was believing that you could also set the range of scary units: fear effect range (kv morale).

    However, I had the problem, that no matter how low I set the "fear effect range" (I've already tried small values, %-values, negative values....), the fear effect always kicks in at about 100 ingame yards. As soon as there's an enemy unit that has the fear ability within 100 ingame yards, the "frightened" factor appears. No I wondered if this issue was ETW-realted and you could probably set the fear effect range lower in NTW?

    To test it, I suggest setting the "ume concerned unit frightened" very high, so that it always shows up (only the "highest" factor shows up in the unit-info-box; set it very high!). Then let the scary unit come closer and observe the "scared" unit to see at what distance to the scary unit the factor appears. Generally, if this fear factor worked properly at shorter distances (10-20 ingame yards), the bayonet-charge, cavalry engagements problems and perhaps even the square problem would be solved. It would be the way to heaven! But I fear it doesn't work in NTW either.

    Edit: Here is the recent debate about bayonet charges in the historical research board, if you haven't discovered it already. I think its easy to see why we would need the "rout without" contact = fear factor.
    Last edited by Kaunitz; September 21, 2011 at 02:58 AM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
    - a modding project for a better representation of XVIIIth century warfare -

  14. #14

    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Kaunitz - you don't need that morale penalty set that high. I'm using it also but instead of giving it high values i keep it low, so it is only slightly lowering the morale, while other factors do their work... instead increase morale penalty for being shot by small arms and artillery. Its not like there is just this one morale penalty and it must represent certain thing. summary of all matters... What you want to achieve is a rout without contact, but you forgetting that without musketry or defenders being moral weakened, no officer would press the charge... what you want to achieve is not realistic either, its pure rat-lab thing where you ignore all other factors and want to achieve unconditional rout just because enemy is close.

    And, btw, there are other penalties which are not in KV_morale which influence this - check localisation.loc file - there is a status that lower morale because enemy is close... you really don't need to have that one morele reducer to influence that..rather go with less morale across the board for all units and balance out all other morale breakers...

  15. #15
    Kaunitz's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Well I think you misunderstood me. I suggested DeeJay to set it that high in order to test if one can influence the range at which the factor appears in NTW. I'm well aware that there are other morale factors I can and do change. I'm not going for an automatic rout.

    My factors are all rather high because thereby you can fine-tune them better. A range from 1-50 allows more gradiations and nuances than a range from 1-10. Moreover, I try to neutralize any hidden/hardcoded factors with that. And there still are many hidden factors, e.g. the comparison of enemies/friendlies nearby within a certain detection radius gives a malus/bonus, the square bonus (must be huge!), the Winning/loosing combat factor. As long as I can't change them, I try to disable them by setting everything else (morale and morale factors) high.

    What factor are you refering to? Perhaps the enemies/friendlies- within detection radius?
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
    - a modding project for a better representation of XVIIIth century warfare -

  16. #16

    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    yes, there is something like - "enemy nearby" status for units, i have seen it sometimes in battles..

  17. #17
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    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Well yes, my suspicion (based on something I've read on ...previous Total War games, I think) is that there is a detection radius around a unit in which the enemy and friendly units are counted. Depending on the result, there can be a bonus, a 0, or a malus. For example, you will see that the "encouraged: friendly units close by" shows up even when the unit itself is the only friendly unit on the battlefield. I guess this is an indication of the bonus of having "no enemy units close by". A shame we have no access to that...

    PS: Today I've found an article on Hyacinth de la Pegna (the painter who painted Dauns victories) and found out that he had also made paintings of the battle of Kolin (there is even an infantry square on it, if I'm correct!), of the lifting of the siege of Prague and the battle of Maxen, additionally to the ones I already know and I've already posted here (Hochkirch, Finkenfang at Maxen). I wonder if they're shown somewhere in Vienna (most likely not since their preservation-status is rather bad). Right now, I only have some small black-and-white pictures of my newly dicovered ones. And indeed the article also mentions the detailed character of his paintings (as far as the locations and habsburg (not prussian!) uniforms are concerned). Oh, and he's also done more battle paintings, e.g. Fontenoy 1745.

    So here's the list of paintings that are available online:

    Hyacinth de la Pegna, Hochkirch 1758
    Hyacinth de la Pegna, Finkenfang/Maxen
    Franz Paul Findenigg, Maxen, 1759
    August Querfurt, Kolin 1757
    Johann Christoph Brand, Hochkirch 1758

    Not available online:

    Hyacinth de la Pegna, lifting of the siege of Prague
    Hyacinth de la Pegna, battle of Maxen
    Hyacinth de la Pegna, battle of Kolin
    Franz Paul Findenigg, battle of Hochkirch
    Franz Paul Findenigg, lifting of the siege of Olmütz (shown in the museum of military history in Vienna)
    Franz Paul Findenigg, battle of Teplitz (shown in the museum of military history in Vienna)

    PS: I've opened up a small quote-collection for the mod (see first post). I plan to get them into the game (loading screen quotes).
    Last edited by Kaunitz; September 22, 2011 at 02:13 AM.
    KAUNITZ PROJECT
    - a modding project for a better representation of XVIIIth century warfare -

  18. #18

    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    or it might mean this is the only bonus unit got..

  19. #19

    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    Hey Kaunitz, I got my buddy the game file so we can play and get more people in with the mod. I noticed one issue though. With the Prussians He gets a Hussar units as well with his cav. Is this normal?
    I only get the Hvy horse when jI use the Prussians. I get Hvy and Light with Austria but only Hvy with Prussia? Any thoughts.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The "Kaunitz Project" for vanilla-ETW [test version already available!]

    The thing I'm always wary of when I look at period paintings like the ones you just posted above is to try not to look at them as depictions of ETW battles.

    There is always a danger that when I look at them I see a block of troops and automatically think 'Battalion' or 'Regiment', but in most cases that's not what they represent in the painting at all.

    For example: in this one http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._bei_Maxen.jpg

    If you carefully count the number of ranks and files depicted in the unit of infantry in the middle ground, (just to the left of the cavalry) it's six ranks deep and about 24 files wide. Which means its a solid block of 144 men. Perhaps a company or division, not as we are conditioned by ETW to see as a battlation. Therefore it might be a either a company or division in column of route moving from left to right across the field or a similar sized force in a very deep line moving away from us. It could even be a sub-division of the battalion which seems to be in the process of forming line just beyond it.

    I first realised I was misinterpreting some of these paintings when I was looking at the scenes from the Panorama de Waterloo, particularly those depicting the French cavalry charges which at first glance I assumed to be showing regiments of French cavalry moving over the battlefield. It wasn't until I counted the ranks and files that I realised I was only looking a squadrons moving forward in various regimental tactical formations, and that what in other scenes looked like a series of infantry battalions advancing one behind the other was actually a French column of divisions.
    Last edited by Didz; September 21, 2011 at 05:26 PM.

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