Kaunitz Project [moved over to NTW engine!]

[bloody bill]

Hey guys, I am up for a battle this weekend if you all want. I can stay up late or whatever is needed. Like I said earlier. I am in Napoleonic clan for NTW3 and play with gents from all over so we can work the time out it just takes some adjusting.

[Kaunitz]

I'm going to upload my current version tomorrow so that anyone can play with it! I will be online othis weekend anyway and see if someone shows up to play against me. Also feel free to play against other people, of course!

[bloody bill]

I'm going to upload my current version tomorrow so that anyone can play with it! I will be online othis weekend anyway and see if someone shows up to play against me. Also feel free to play against other people, of course!

Invite me or message me on steam its always on and if im not on I check it often. We should be able to get a game going.

[Kaunitz]

Okay, I’ve done 4 hours of artillery tuning yesterday. The results are quite mixed and I’m not entirely happy yet. There's room for improvement.

ROUNDSHOT

Roundshot seems to be okay now. It’s all a matter of “velocity” and “maximum allowed elevation”. I think the ball behaviour is quite reasonable now. If you target a spot far away, the gun will be aimed higher and thereby fly above the lethal height (man/horse; red zone in the diagram) for most of its flight. If you target a mid range spot, the trajectory will be flatter, and the ball will hit everything (yes, also the ground) of a mans’ height. If you target a close range spot, I get the impression that the stupid gun crews actually lower the barrel a bit. In general, it’s quite tricky to target the right spot for the desired result, but I guess it’s a matter of practice.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(red dot=targeted spot)

GRAPE and CANISTER

I’m very uncertain about the correct angle of the “cones”/spread of the projectiles. Another problem of the ETW-cone is that it looks different from the realistic cone posted by Didz (see post 60 in this thread), because all ETW projectiles leave the muzzle at the same velocity. I don’t want to go into too much detail about the problems of modding canister only by tweaking velocity and maximum elevation and cone-angle. What I’ve ended up with is this:

The velocity of canister projectiles is too fast, thus they will travel farther than they should (I had to do this. It’s the only way guns would still fire with the very small “maximum elevation” allowed). But therefore, projectiles inflict less damage over range. It’s better explained in the following diagram:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(the problem is: 1) I don't know where the optimal line is supposed to be (ideally-realistically); 2) It's also hard to figure out where the optimum line is located in the game)

Just a few more tests and I'll upload the version for tomorrow.

[JaM]

Guys, anybody has an idea what IMPETOUS trait for units is? is that the old "can charge without orders" or there is something else?

[Kaunitz]

I have no idea, I'm afraid. But whatever it does, it sounds as if I don't want to activate it for any unit!

For anyone interested: i'm ready to play a battle. All my generals have received their dispositions, the camp is struck, the army is waiting in column. Just catch me when I'm on steam.

[JaM]

why? if it had the right effect it would be a "must" for any Eastern Light cavalry like Mamluks or similar... also some Hussars would need it too...

[Kaunitz]

Well I can see your point but I don't need eastern cavalry for this mod which tries to be a Seven Years War mod. Luckily (from a modders perspective) Fredericks hopes for an ottoman intervention never materialized. There were Kossacks in Russian service, thats true, but I don't think that they were used in the same way as ordinary battle cavalry. I'd rather give Kossacks a "reluctant to close combat"-ability. They should shine at raiding and petit guerre though.

Hussars, on the other hand, should be used as a kind of light battle cavalry in my time period, at least that's the impression I've got from reading battle accounts. Apart from their task as eclaireurs and skirmishers, they also fought in formation like their better-mounted cuirassier and dragoon-fellows. I don't see a reason to give them an "impetous" ability (whatever it actually does). If we can get big maps with villages on them, I might give Hussars the ability to dismount and act like light infantry though. As advanced guards for their armies, Grenzers, Hussars and also Grenadiers and Dragoons sometimes skirmished quite fiercly (Duffy in "Prussias Gory" gives an account of the fighting for Gotha before the battle of Rossbach, for example).

[Kaunitz]

Okay, I've just had a battle with bloody bill. There were two major issues:

1) Artillery is clearly overpowered. I need to do something about it before the next game. But I'm afraid that it will take quite a lot of time to get this right.
2) I think I will get rid of the "walking fatigue" again. It's really a nuisance and not very intuitive. When you let your troops advance under fire in the heat of battle, you don't think about it. You only wonder: why didn't they hit anything with their volley?! Constantly checking the fatigue status of all units would also require a ridiculous amount of micromanaging.

Artillery was a game breaker in our game. The rest was fine in my opinion. I pushed forward my right wing, where my cavalry took some ugly oblique shots but then managed to rout the opposing cavalry. I couldn't fully exploit this success, however, for it was raining canister on this flank (I only managed to pursue one of his grenadier battalions). On my left, there was a lot of skirmishing (which played out pretty nice, I think) until finally parts of our lines locked and engaged in a fire fight. An attempt to attack the temporarily open flank of billys line (there was a little gap between his right-centre and his left-centre) failed due to my bad micromanagement. Then I managed to get a single cavalry squadron into a gap that had opened up between his "main line" and the grenadiers and skirmishers that were pursuing some of my Grenzers and had lost communication with billys main force. The cavalry moving into the gap was enough to let billys line collapse (which was really nice I think), but in turn, my cavalry was shot down with canister, just as all my attempts to push forward with the rest of my army. In the end, billy won. While my pursuing units were shot into pieces by his artillery, his units rallied.

What can be a bit tricky is that cavaly (remember it can run now!) can show up very fast and unexpectedly, especially if your HQ is out of range. I think it would be a good idea to increase the detection ranges of all units a bit.

[bloody bill]

Yes Kaunitz, I agree it was a good fight. I agree the arty is a bit to dominate now. We both pushed our opponents left flank, I ran into heavy woods which is bad I really enjoyed the battle it really makes you keep track of your lines which is wonderful. My heavy cav seemed to be no match for equal number of light cav. Is there a distinction with hvy and light or did I use them very poorly. Kaunitz flank attack should have won the battle as my left crumbled my two batteries on my left unleashed hell with canister and saved me. I think it should of helped me for sure but it decimated Kaunits battalions. I think minor changes with arty and some fatigue issues with walking inf and it will be better. I am very excited for a rematch as Kaunitz truly thumped me with the flank attack

[Kaunitz]

I gave light cavalry less morale, better "turning rates" (they should be a bit more manoeuverable, but I don't think that one can really tell the difference) and a better detection range in open terrain. Cavalry combat depends a lot on flank attacks and fatigue (it is better not to double click to attack!).

The main cavalry clash (4 vs 4 squadrons if I remember correctly) was made up of cuirassiers exclusively, if you're refering to that?

[Dee Jay]

Great to hear that the game worked out mostly ok

I am downloading kaunitzmp3 right now, but because of my capped internet at the moment, it will take a while.

I am still willing to help the infantry meele issue too Kaunitz, if you can tell me what you want out of them

[bloody bill]

Dj, ill be on saturday so hopefully we can get some games in. the battle with Kaunitz was really good and showed some issues but in all it was good.

[Kaunitz]

Here is the idea for artillery:

As it is right now, round shot is still overpowered. This has to do with the scale (4:1 for inf and cav, 2:1 for guns) as well as with the features of the maps. A single gun model (representing two guns - otherwise the frontages would be out of scale) firing at infantry deployed in three ranks will knock out 3 soldier-models (representing 12 men). In reality, it should only inflict 6 casualties - that is: 1 and a half model. The same goes for cavalry deployed in two ranks: a single gun model will knock out 8 troopers although it should only inflict 4 casualties. The affair gets worse when the shots come in obliquely. You end up with enfilading cannon balls that can take out 1/2 squadron at a range of 900+ yards. From what I've read, this is clearly overpowered. Its also important to note that the models and hitboxes are out of scale as well.

So what I was thinking of is this:
Artillery will get three types of ammunition:

1) Roundshot (long and medium range); 2 shots per minute (perhaps we could reduce it to 1,5 per minute)
2) Roundshot (short range) - replaces grape; 2 shots per minute
3) Canister; 3 shots per minute

I find it more important to have a good representation of roundshot than to differentiate between grape (large canister) and (small) canister. The setting I have in mind is clearly a bit more abstract, as it uses the "ammunition" types to represent artillery efficiency, not ammunition types per se.

1) Roundshot (long and medium range):
This will be the ordinary cannon ball with the significant difference that the ball will only ever take out 1 model. It doesn't plough through ranks and you can't get enfilades with it. Blame it on the gunners' bad aim, on obstacles, etc. You'd need to be god in order to get in a shot at an obstacle of a humans width at 900 yards in a perfect angle. It may look a bit stupid given the oversized (for the scale) ETW models, but its the only way to go. Imagine how small the flank of a three rank line would look like from 1000 yards distance (actually we should be manoevering around units deployed in a single rank, but this doesn't look nice...its a problem that all wargames have with line-formations)...

2) Roundshot (short range)
This will be the ordinary cannon ball but this time it can plough through ranks. I don't know what range would make sense. I'd set it rather short, to be honest.

3) Canister
This will be the only form of canister available. I think its okay to drop grapeshot, for 1) I didn't manage to get it to work anyway and 2) the range-difference between grape and canister isn't that big. I'm still struggling to get canister right... (this is a better video but the target is a bit small...)

Any opinions on this matter?

[bloody bill]

Hey buddy, I think arty at range is really good. Our last battle we did not see any canister so hard to say about that. I do like the at range arty though seems really good.

[Kaunitz]

Bloody Bill and I had another battle in Algeria. It was a real grinding competition this time as none of us managed to turn a flank. On my right, my line was anchored on a wood. On the left (where the coastline was), my cavalry lured for any mistake, being molested by Bills well positioned 12pdr battery on the hill. Big parts of the lines were locked in fire combat for about 10 minutes, until the Austrians gave way. Unfortunately a wooden railfence absorbed all the canister shot that my 6pdr tried to get on Bills centre. However, the Austrians rallied and made a second stand. Although they were now supported by a battery of 12pdrs, they couldn't hold against the Prussians which came downhill (which reduced the effect of the 12pdrs...) and took position behind the stone wall, themselves bringing some artillery as well. In the end, after an hour of fighting, the Austrians had lost more than a third of their troops: they took ca. 550 casualties (representing 2200), 100 (400) of which probably surrendered (grenadier-square in a desperate position - they left their secure wood-anchor on the left flank), whereas the victorious Prussians under Bills command had suffered ca. 400 (1600) casualties. So in terms of casualties it was a phyrric victory for the Prussians. I planned to produce a short video of this battle, but my "game cam" seems to be broken. Everything it captures is much too dark and tuning brightness up just results in very odd contrast.

Apart from the stupid instant square, which saved a battalion of Prussian grenadiers , two issues came up:

1) Prussian cuirassiers charged some Grenzers in the open. They did break them almost instantly, but unfortunately, the cuirassiers broke as well. They didn't suffer any casualties from the routed Grenzers and they rallied again, but still it was a nuisance. This effect is due to the moral malus "attacked in flank/rear" which kicks in for cavalry almost all the time because it is so quckly disordered once you unleash it. I could try to reduce the malus a bit. But then again I fear that cavalry melees would take much too long. It's something to be tested for the next version.

2) Instead of shooting down my grenadier-square at close range (which would have routed it very fast), the Prussians went for some hand-to-hand fighting with the square. It took quite long and I didn't like it. I think that Bill will get some salvos in at closer range next time, so I don't even have to think about this problem anymore.


Prior to that, we had started a battle in Bavaria which ended in a crash before the real action could begin (Steam decides to update itself at very bad moments sometimes...). It didn't look good for me as my flanking force almost crashed into Bills readily deployed and strong right wing. We both had chosen the same hill as our position. Next time, I'll send some Grenzers forward to scout, even if this means that the battle will take longer. We also had an interesting incident where some of my Hussars almost got Bills HQ-unit. Barely did his general reach his Jäger-supports who drove the Hussars off with a few shots. The battle-entitiy + gatigue effects for the HQ unit really worked well. While walking, it moves with ordinary infantry speed, while running, at light cavalry speed, with the significant difference that - in contrast to light and heavy cav - the HQ units speed is reduced to infantry speed again once it gets tired (after a few seconds of running). So basically, you should have your HQ in a few seconds running range to some support units. Its not meant to be a "scouting unit".

[Dee Jay]

Good to hear the first battle went well

[bloody bill]

I think it was really good for a head on meat grinder. Arty seems to not like shooting uphill. Fences seem to stop arty almost entirely for some reason. All in all it was a good fight that could have went either way. The cav breaking after running your grenzers over could be looked at as if they were disordered and had to regroup Kaunitz. They seemed to rally in about 30 to 60 seconds and got right back in the fight. The last second square is a pain with ntw as well, it sucks to see your cav pull off a great maneuver only to see the square effect start working with the unit not even is square yet. I wish there was a way to make the square formation bonus not come into effect until the unit is fully formed. It was a good battle though with lots of moments of extreme stress, lots of fun

[Kaunitz]

Yet another short battle report of what I think was bloody Bills and my most interesting battle so far.

The whitecoats strike the Prussian flank

I intended to strike on Bills flank. Where my army was supposed to be deployed, I only left some Hussars, Grenzers, a single battalion of line infantry and some artillery. With these little troops I tried to make Bill believe that my whole army was there. Bill came forward, but thanks to his caution, the resistance of my few troops and the woods, he didn't come forward fast enough. So I had a good chance to strike his left wing while his right wing was still occupied with my diversonary forces and/or bogged down by the giant wood in the centre. Meanwhile I had located the left flank of Bills army and, after a brief and successful cavalry engagement, started to engage it with my infantry. Due to the wood, a big part of my army could develop on a smaller portion of his army. However, my flank attack was also hindered and slowed down by a wood, so that the flanking forces arrived one by one rather than as an impressive line. It also gave Bill some time to bring up a reserves to his threatened left flank (was this reserve positioned behind your centre?). However, my arriving troops were more numerous and putting up pressure. Finally they were numerous enough to outflank his line+reserves. He drew back, I pursued and finally managed to rout his wing, even capturing a gun on the way. Bill reacted and also retreated with his right wing, in the direction of his 12pdr battery on the hill (to the left of the picture):


(this is just a rough sketch of what I remember of the battle... the white arrows indicate the direction of my flank march, the black arrow is where Bill pushed forward against my "demonstrating" troops.)

Pursuit 101 and the Prussian sacrifice

But then things became worse for the pursuing austrian army. I didnt have any cavalry left on the important side of the battle, so I couldn't pursue successfully. It seems as if this happens quite often to me. Things got worse on the left side of my line, where Bills army was retreating, still unbroken. As my troops were following the retreating Prussians and stumbled out of the wood, they met a prussian battalion in square, prepared to be shot into pieces in order to gain time to cover the retreat of the rest of the army. They did this quite successfully and thereby prevented my troops from forming a proper line in the open, outside of the wood. The Austrians payed dearly for every minute the square held, as the prussian 12pdrs on the hill were starting to play on them.

The hill of defeat

The successfully withdrawn right wing of the Prussians now formed a new line around the 12pdrs (question: were all the troops that built the new line from your right wing? Or did you have another reserve somewhere?). Meanwhile, the broken Prussian left wing started to rally in the north, quite some distance away though. This was the time when I decided to attack the line around the 12pdrs as long as the rallied troops were still out of reach. Now, unfortunatley, the wood and the square threw my army into disorder. I didn't manage to bring up a proper line to engage the Prussians. Once some sort of line was deployed, a battalion routed, downwards, back to the wood, where it met another battalion that was just making its way out of the wood. Add to this confusion the 12pdr balls that ploughed through both battalions.



So now it was time for the Austrians' left wing to collapse (one of the line battalions suffered dearly, being cut down by Prussian cavalry on the flight), and I retired my right wing hastily with Bills rallied troops (and some 12pd balls) in pursuit. For I had already lost my cavalry on my left wing, it was primarily the woods which covered my retreat. Some Grenzers did a very nice job in preventing the Prussian Jägers from pursuing my fugitives as well (the movement-speed difference between light and ordinary infantry can be quite nasty on the pursuit!). The Prussians were advancing once more, regaining all the gorund that they had lost. Inspecting my troops, I came to the conclusion that another stand was not a reasonable option and started to limber my guns. A squadron of Prussian cuirassiers that had sneaked around my flank picked off my 6pdrs. But my 12pdrs were saved from a cavalry attack by their grenadier-escort.

Conclusion

I think it was a really good game with some nice manoeuvers (the flank attack gave me some real momentum!) and lots of back and forth. In hindsight, I believe that terrain has played a huge role in this engagement. It enabled me to envelop the Prussian flank without being caught in the left flank myself, and it prevented me from forming a new line in order to attack the second prussian position on the hill in a coordinated manner. I also liked the role of light infantry in this engagement, especially how my Grenzers were having a fire fight with the Prussian Jägers as the rest of my army retreated. Also the Fog of War-HQ-aspect worked very well and I think it was quite balanced. It really makes battles more chaotic, as you're constantly trying to make out where the enemy is strong and where he's weak, and you always have to be prepared. You know, I was growing a bit nervous when my battalions had already engaged Bills line but still I had the bad feeling that I didn't really knew where the rest of his troops were positioned. I think we'd need bigger battles with larger cavalry wings in order to create battles with more decisive outcomes. Sure, the Austrians had suffered much more casualties than the Prussians in this battle, but nevertheless the whitecoats managed to retreat from the battle with large parts of their forces still intact. It was not a complete rout.

SCREENSHOTS AND SOME ADDITIONAL REMARKS FOLLOW IN POST 88

[bloody bill]

Very good battle report, Yes my reserves came from my center. I thought two battalions would be enough but it was not. Very good flank attack you did. I was originally going to push my center but it bogged way down in the wood and the your flank attack hit hard. I knew I had to get away as fast as I could and my square leftt to die and my cav really saved me. My 12lb on the hill did deadly work on the white lines moving up the hill and proved to be decisive in my opinion as your poor boys crossed a big field under constant fire and when they got to the top my lines were waiting.

Very good fight, I lost the battle completely then won it back by the stand of my poor battalion square. Alot of fun.