Kaunitz Project [moved over to NTW engine!]

[Kaunitz]

I am very glad that you like what you've seen so far! It will be better against human opponents than against the poor AI. I'm working on the updated version, so that I'll be able to upload it Friday evening and you can join Dee Jay and me on Saturday and/or Sunday. You can find me on Steam as "Kaunitz" with my forum-avatar. I'm looking forward to it! I hope we don't get the "cannot connect to host"-problem. Dee Jay and I had it initially but it seemed as if this "hamachi"-programme helped us to overcome it.

What questions do you have? Have you played it "in combination" with DMUC (I wonder if that worked?!), or did you disable DMUC to play it?

To keep you informed: I'm working on artillery (quite hopeless), cavalry will be able to "run" again, fatigue=disorder-states will have much bigger consequences than before, infantry walking speed reduced again to fir the 4:1 scale (I slighlty deviated because of all the complaints, but honestly: in multiplayer battles I was stressed at some points!), infantry battalions take more time to turn (also makes their volleys untidy and less dangerous - harder to get a volley effect), morale adapted (units will be shattered more often, to prevent the "disperse, rally, attack from all sides!"-thing; The HQ-FoW-system will stay - it needs some more testing. The HQs' detection range is clearly set too short right now, but it's the only way to make reconoitring an important aspect even in the small battles that we're fighting. You will have the big detection range for the HQ, and if you want to operate far from it, you'll need to use advanced guards. In the last battle I do think I surprised Dee Jay a little bit as my three battalions and even two squadrons (it took ages to get them through the woods!) lured behind my grenzer-screen and then stepped out of the wood.Also, unlike in Dee Jays and my last battle, the HQ will be able to hide .

[Tango12345]

Revolutionary Multiplayer Modifications

I might not be nearly as schooled in the art of modding as you lot are, but I will say that that name is perhaps a bit too long winded, and isn't very "catchy" so to speak.

[Dee Jay]

Yeah, names are hard to think of, do you have any suggestions Tango?

And I can't wait tot try out your newest mod Kaunitz

[Tango12345]

@Dee Jay
Frankly as far as names are concerned, "The Kaunitz Project" is better than any I've thought up so far.

[Dee Jay]

Thanks for the update Kaunitz

And yeah, The Kaunitz Project does have a nice ring to it.

[Dee Jay]

Hey Kaunitz, I did manage to give the round shot one try, and here is my resault:

The Blue line represents were the cannon ball was fire from, to where it first bounced off the ground
The green line show were the cannon ball landed after bouncing from that point. The cannon ball also completely stopped after hitting the gound for the second time.
That red marker shows were the enemy line is, the cannon ball did go strait though the enemy lines.

The cannon ball was fired from 180 (max range) in game meters. Is this the resault you were looking for? I think it matches your explanation before.

[v_V-_CaNgRy_-V_v]

Hey

I just downloaded your mod and for what Ive seen I love it. I'll be looking forward for the full release, and you have my support. I'll play it and I will give you my feedback.

Oh and +Rep to you.

Thanks...

[JaM]

big problem with 0 elevation is that if speed is too low you wont be able to fire your guns at target that is in range.. 0 elevation works only on completely flat terrain, once you have some hills, it will become a nightmare... that is the reason why I'm using max elevation 15.

[Kaunitz]

Well, yes, its obviously the "velocity" that decides how far a ball can travel, not the "maximum range" that you set for the projectile. And I'm perfectly happy with that! Also I'm very happy about the role of terrain. Round shot on rough terrain will be comparatively ineffective. As the ball travels at the height of the gunbarrel (which can be adjusted only a little bit), even a small bump in the ground will suffice to deflect the ball or produce an obstacle in which the ball gets stuck. That's exactly why you should choose your artillery positions very carefully. Brent Nosworthy, Battle Tactics of Napoleon and his Enemies, p. 398ff. also makes that point clear, explaining the problems that artillery had in hilly terrain. A position on a slight and gentle hill was advantageous because the shot couldn't be stopped by small bumps in the ground - therefore, however, you had to stick to direct fire. Artillery positions on too high or steep a hill were bad as you couldn't level the barrel of the gun too much. To give a quote: "A perfect position was atop a hill with relatively straight and gentle slopes. Ideally, the height of this hill was equal to between 1/20 and 1/16 the distance of the target being fired at with an overall gradient of two to four degrees to the horizon." Not all hills are equal. Especially if you're an artilleyman! What is really bad is firing against rising ground. I've experienced this ingame allready...targeting a spot more than a few ingame yards away made my guns unable to fire at all. Would be great if the crew gave you some kind of feedback though, like: "No, Sir, our carriage doesn't allow the gun being level so high!"

Didz has provided me with plenty information on that topic as well:

Didz on artillery
Didz on artillery accuracy/trajectories
Didz on artillery ranges and trajectories

Of course it might be a bit overdone on a 1:1 scale, given the small size of ETW maps and (sometimes) the roughness of their terrain. As I'm using the 4:1 scale, the range of the guns is reduced accordingly and thereby also open areas with flat ground increase in size. Its not so hard to find good flat artillery terrain on the 1:4 scale as on the 1:1 scale (on which most guns should be able to fire from one end of the map to the other anyway *g*). For comparison: a 12pdr is supposed to have an effective range for round shot of about 1200 yards. In the Kaunitz Project, this comes down to 300 ingame yards. It's easier to find 300 ingame-yards of flat terrain than to find 1200 ingame-yards.

The 4:1 scale offers some different problems, however. How can a single shot take out 3=12 soldiers, if the infantry is deployed in only 3 ranks? Yes, we can assume that 4 guns were shooting, but 4 guns are a quite a big battery! Also, the 4 guns would not shoot simoultaneously - rather they'd shoot in a staggered manner in order to be able to react to a sudden threat. For this reason, 1 gun model in the mod is meant to represent 2 (not 4 guns) that don't fire simultaneously. For this reason, I have to reduce the lethality of a single shot (without disabling enfilades!) and increase reloading speed. It's not a perfect solution, I agree, and it still needs more finetuning. Then again the unlimited ammunition for special shot like canister and grape makes artillery in general more deadly and effective in ETW than it should be.

I've only done a short test with the new "ball behavior", but I really liked what I've seen. E.g. when I targeted a spot too far away, the crew would elevate the barrel a bit. The ball traveled farther this way but the angle of the gun also meant that 1) the ball did not bounce but burried itself into the ground instead, and 2) it traveled too high above the ground to hit anything for most of its flight (not so high as to give you the rock-lobber-feeling though). Apart from that, the ball didn't travel far enough anyway. It can now be easily finetuned with the projectile velocity. Once the enemy gets into grape range (a kind of "large canister", replaces shrapnel in this mod), you'll have better chances to hit something in rough terrain. I actually like how the usefulness of ammunition (canister and grape) at different distances is determined by the different spread/cones of the projectiles.

Regarding your PM about the pistol_riders_animations I can only give you a hint. I've made it work about a year ago, but unfortunately I can't remember exactly how. All I still know is that I've looked it up on the Dessweffy Hussars, who were included in one of DMUCs unit-packs. They had pistols and were shooting them from the saddle. I don't have the DMUC packs anymore, but maybe you could ask some Darthmod player/modder? Sorry that I can't help you more.

[bloody bill]

I play NTW3 mp battles all the time and helped beta test and am still helping beta test next version of the game. I am able to have 4 v 4 battles with gents from all over with minimal lag with 4 v4. I know that about 3 sec lag with 4v4 is normal. I have cleaned out my ETW so I have your mod only in my data folder. Ill just wait for the updated unit skins as DMUC seems to crash way to often.

quick question.
Is there a way to make the cadre figures not crouch when moving as the rest of the line is proudly advancing standing tall and the cadre's are crouching

[Kaunitz]

Well this version is not supposed to work with DMUC at all - just for vanilla ETW. I suppose you know that?

As for the crouching cadres (and also artillery crews in the MP version): It's on my list, but I don't give it a very high piority for now. Basics first, eyecandy second. It shouldn't be a problem though - its just some unpleasant work.

[bloody bill]

Well this version is not supposed to work with DMUC at all - just for vanilla ETW. I suppose you know that?

As for the crouching cadres (and also artillery crews in the MP version): It's on my list, but I don't give it a very high piority for now. Basics first, eyecandy second. It shouldn't be a problem though - its just some unpleasant work.

certain units with DMUC work fine most make it crash. No problem on waiting for eye candy I love the game mechanics and am truly excited about the update and to play a person. Thanks for giving me the chance to help. I love that tactics are the main emphasis on the game and not exploitation of vanilla units.

[Dee Jay]

Thanks Kaunitz

I will ty to learn to make maps, so that we can play our games on some proper 18th century/Napoleonic battle fields. I will try to make some historical Seven Years War maps, if anyone has some pics for me of that would be great

[bloody bill]

Thanks Kaunitz

I will ty to learn to make maps, so that we can play our games on some proper 18th century/Napoleonic battle fields. I will try to make some historical Seven Years War maps, if anyone has some pics for me of that would be great

My buddy Lord Fullin makes maps for NTW3 He has the largest collection of maps I have ever seen and we fight our battles on historical and fictional wonderful looking maps. I will ask to borrow a few if you would like. I am not sure if we can but it would be worth it as they are 2 - 4 times larger then vanilla depending on which one and they are amazing looking. Please let me know if this is something your interested in and Ill try and get some.

[bloody bill]

Well guys I almost forgot that Lord Fullin is putting out a new patch with 15 new maps for NTW3 so I wont bother him now. I will however download the map tools and give it ago I have some buddies that make maps of historical and for fun so I will bother alot of them and see what I can come up with.

[Kaunitz]

MAPS

I've tried to create maps myself some time ago using the Lordz tutorial, but I always got stuck due to some gimp-issue when I tried to run these scripts (it always said Gimp Layer Scale Full). But really maps are what ETW and this mod in particular needs. And I'm quite jealous of the better looking battlefields in NTW. It would be so great to have some maps that take into account the 4:1 scale. I also thought of depicting rough terrain as areas dotted with little spots of (invisible- if thats possible?) movement-hindering terrain, so that lines would be torn apart and the use of columns would make more sense. But this is only a scetchy idea that might sound better in theory than in praxis. In general, bigger maps could have more terrain on them, so that - ideally - your army should be forced into column if you want to move around quickly (on streets).

It shouldn't be hard to find historical maps. See for example here: http://www.digam.net/thema.php?lpt=177 (SYW= 24-26). Also the comprehensive work of the Grosser Generalstab has lots of maps in it that I have access to. But do we really want to recreate the “big” battles? Playing such a battle would probably take 4-5 hours in this mod.

The question is how we can make terrain count. Sure, I’ve severely increased movement penalties for all kind of terrain. Artillery as well as cavalry is better off not to move into woods if you expect them to do something in the next few hours. But that’s about it? What’s up with villages? I don't like the idea of occupying out-of-scale-buildings at all. So shall we have villages as “rough” terrain (which provides cover) defined by some (unoccupyable - if that's possible?) small buildings? I’d also need to find out which kind of cover (none, slight, some, good excellent) is connected with which kind of terrain first. And another problem is that units in rough terrain can still shoot with the same effect as if they were deployed in the open.

WEEKEND GAME

I’m looking forward to the weekend. Please keep in mind that it is not finished yet. The artillery balancing can’t be perfect with the few battles I can play until Saturday. Any suggestions when we shall meet yet? And do we really try a 2 versus 2, even though my game will crash 100% sometime during the battle? It might be my connection. I have quite a lot of lags playing against Dee Jay. I'm moving in January however, so the problem might be solved. If not, I'll have to get a better PC . Last but not least some important remarks to the “newbies” :

1) On multiplayer battles especially, you really have to get close to the enemy. Shooting at maximum range is the way to an hour-long (and I really mean hour!) fire fight with lots of casualties on both sides. For musketry to have a good execution, you have to be at “half” the maximum range and below. Turn auto-fire off!
2) It is not recommended to let your troops run ever if the enemy is close. Except for cavalry on the pursuit.
3) If your guns don’t fire, they cannot target the enemy properly because you’ve positioned them in a bad way. Keep in mind that artillery will have troubles if you try to shot “upwards” or “downwards”. Never position them “on the top” of a hill, rather on its slope. Search for flat ground.
4) Be careful when you’re moving your troops around as a group because they may run even though you have not ordered them to do so (they will try to keep up the formation and start to run). As running troops are never hidden, this will allow your enemy to see your position, potentially ruining your whole game. Therefore, it’s recommended to move units individually if you want to keep them hidden.
5) Your HQ-unit (the one with the big detection range) must not be the unit that you selected as the first unit in the unit-selection screen. Remember that the first-selected unit will ALWAYS be visible to all enemies. If you show the enemy the position of you “detection radius”, he will have an easy time to surprise you.
6) I wouldn’t go for bayonet charges as they still don’t work as I’d like to have them. The better way is to stop at close range and pour some musketry in. If you do go for a risky bayonet charge, the most likely result if you manage to get contact is a melee fight of a few seconds with casualties on both sides followed by a double-rout.

So I'll try to figure out a good time for our matchup....right now it's 8:20am in Austria, 15:50pm in South Australia, and 23:20pm in Oregon.....phew....I think it's impossible to get all four of us together.

For Oregon, I can be online from 18:00 (=09:00 in Oregon) until about 01:00 (16:00 Oregon).
For Australia, forenoon is better: I can be there from 08:00 (=15:00 in Australia) as long as the Australians stay up.

[Dee Jay]

Yeah I dont think it wil be possbile to get us all together at the same time, we all have 7 hours or more time difference between us.

Also Kaunitz, if you could show me a handy diagram (like the one you made for round shot) on how you want melees to work, I will try my hardest to get them right

EDIT: Do you think you will have the mod uploaded and ready for tomorrows battle?

[Kaunitz]

Tomorrow? Tomorrow is Friday, not Saturday!? But given that it is quite impossible to get the artillery balancing right so quickly, there's no big reason "not" to upload it. It's still WIP, so I don't have any scruples. I haven't changed the loc-file yet either.

ARTILLERY

For artillery, I'm trying to find a good way for round shot, grape (large canister), and canister. It's easier for round shot where you just have to find the right velocity. For the canister-shots types, you also have to think of the number of projectiles and the spread of the projectiles. Grape should have fewer projectiles, but they are heavier, thus they will leave the barrel with higher velocity (=less spead) and travel farther. Small canister has more projectiles but they're lighter, resulting in less velocity (shorter range) and higher spread. I'm trying to get these things right, but I'm doing it with gut instincts. One also has to remember the scale (2:1 for the guns, 4:1 for everything else), which means that I should reduce the spread of the projectiles quite a lot, although it might look a bit stupid - imagine a canister shot only spreading over a frontage of 2-3 soldier models... On the other hand: artillery (able to pour out 2-3 canister shots a minute) would be clearly overpowered otherwise. I wonder how large a canister cone/death zone would be in real life. Contemporaries give an "effective" range of (small) canister of up to about 500 yards for a 12pdr. I wonder where the 500 yards-mark would be located in Didzs diagram (my illiterate guess would be somewhere between the lines B-C and D-E), and how far the bullets would have spread (distance beteen B and C, D and E) at that range:

The vast bulk of the balls tended to follow the line of fire producing a quite small spread of high velocity rounds directly ahead of the gun (D to E on the diagram). However, a smaller percentage of the balls in inhibited in some way during firing would leave the barrel at a lower velocity and usually a wider angle flying out in all directions around the gun muzzle like a spray. The lower velocity meant they did not travel as far as those which left the barrle uninhibited but nevertheless they were capable of lethal dammge if you were hit by one. (B to C on the diagram). Finally those balls which flew high would eventually fall back to earth providing another scattering of balls along the entire path of the killing area.

BAYONET CHARGES

I will try to create a short explanation of how I'd like to have bayonet charges after this weekend, Dee Jay. I fear it will be more complicated than the artillery issue for one has to remember that morale and fatigue settings cannot be altered for bayonet-charges alone. One has to keep in mind that any change also affects fire combats. Moreover, no matter what factors you're modding, there's always the chance for the defender to "counter-charge" and thereby profit from the same bonus as the attacker. Historically this kind of braveheartish double-charge would happen only very rarely or never, I believe.

[Dee Jay]

I think we might need to wait one more week, just so you can hopefully get all those important things right

And if you can explain what you want for bayonet fights, I will try to get it right

EDIT: Were there Howitzers in the Seven Years War?

[Kaunitz]

Yes, howitzers saw action during the Seven Years War, although their number was low if compared to ordinary guns. You can get an impression from the Seven Years War-pages. I definitively need to add them.
Well, if you don't mind that not everything will be perfect, I'd still like to play this weekend! It won't be perfect next week either, only better perhaps .