Ottoman/Turkish Classical Music

Here is the detailed info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_classical_music

As a person of classical tastes in most things, I'm also very much into "classical" music-both western and eastern. So I thought I should share this to see if I can sparkle any interests.

This music is basically a mixture of all major groups that lived under Ottoman rule. Earlier forms of the Turkish palace music was more Arabic-Persian influenced. During the Ottoman era this mixed with Byzantine music, hence a great Greek and Armenian influence came in. And later, when the Sephardic Jews were settled along Balkans to Constantinople even more coloured it became.
Composers of this genre was of many nationalities, including the guy in my avatar Dimitrie Cantemir who was Romanian(he also composed western classical and mixed the two at some point as well:genius) It was like the imperial palace music, it was elite. During the last century of Ottomans it became the music of Constantinople and still remains that way.
Yes, the thing with this music is that it smells İstanbul/Constantinople in it's EVERYTHING, and Constantinople/İstanbul is a mixture of great civilazations. Keep in mind how diverse the population in İstanbul was until the republic era. Many minorities still remained even during the republic era.

The sad thing is, it is getting even more degenarated by pop-culture. Back in 30s-50s, things were classy as in many places of the world. There was this concept of "İstanbul gentlemen", which originated with the rising clerk class and went to modern looking republic men in the "classical fashion"
Sort of like these fellas(except these two are very significant poets)

to

notice the clothing

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Typical insturments of this music
The Oud, which I love a lot and think of starting.


Kanun


Percussion


Classical Kemenche, originating from Byzantines. I play the Pontian Lyra/kemençe but its a folk instrument.


Ney, a flute origins in ancient Anatolia

This would make a group enough for me as these are my favorites
But besides these there are:
Tambur, originated back to Sumerians
and sounds AWESOME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOEQb...eature=related

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There is also a bowed version of this but there is still no known techniquq for...I believe it is a sound one must listen before dying at least once

Later coming Violin with Eastern accord.(common in Balkans and Turkey)
Sounds a bit like this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK17aO-Xd8A

and of course the clarinet

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Just like in western classical, my interests mostly lie in even older days. I am more of a baroque fan in western classical, so in the Ottoman classical I try to find as much as older pieces which are not easy to come by. Thanks to Dimitrie Cantemir however, many have came to this day.
My favorite performer of the era is Jordi Savall, thankfully he has also made a work for eastern music.

So I'll put some examples.
An older piece by Dimitrie Kantemir

and another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TavMkpoAAw

One of the greatest composers from earlier days, Hamamizade Dede Efendi:
He was very annoyed by the rise of western music in Ottoman palace and tried some experimental stuff. I'm not exactly sure if he tried to break the heterophonic music as opposed to western polyphonic.

another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj65ohO9DL0
A really famous one by him.
Check this version, first half in with the traditional insturments, second with the western. I loved it



One of my favorite pieces, I also play this one by Golden Horn Ensemble


Notice that its mostly female voice. Probably because the origins of the music lie in Harem. Women of Harem used to learn insturments and sing.

Random old pieces


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdllD4e7Ynk

Dü Çeşmiden Gitmez
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV3vQBlfRDg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK05eZ8t1fg

This is a polyphonic piece composed by Sultan Abdülaziz in the western fashion but with great eastern influence. I thought it was VERY interesting. Remember he lived in the westernization period of the empire.



Today this music is loved by minority but known by many.
What is the "listening culture of this music" today ?

There is this thing we call fasıl, its sort of like going to a disco. You go to a fasıl, you eat, you drink rakı(a local type of alcohol) and listen to band and sing with them.
Its a boring thing for majority of 20 year olds like me but hey, I love it. Mostly "old" people do it, like I said, its a dying custom

Looks sort of like this



Wish I lived in old İstanbul with Giorgos, Alen, İshak...this tavern culture is a must see if you come to İstanbul. Its the real İstanbul spirit.


I'll add some random more modern pieces which are mostly in modern Turkish. Note that the lyrics of this music is mostly Ottomanish, as their origin lie in palace(Divan) poetry.

Another favorite of mine by compsoed by Armenian Kemani Serkis Efendi.


Bir İhtimal Daha var
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzPc1...eature=related

Ömrümüzün Son Demi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzOv-H2FBrA

Sevmekten Kim Usanır
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXDwFh_JE7c

Duydum ki Unutmuşsun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSr9fOnsaEw

Makber-really really powerful voice here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkII6wS1-sE

I love the mix of oriental and western music, really. Sounds mighty

Excellent stuff

Talking for the origins of word, I think Ney devoleped in middle ages by Iranians.

For Tambur according to etymologic dictionary first recorded in the 14th century in Arabic with the "an instrument originally from Khorasan" mean.

Great thread btw.

I have read from lots of sources that Tambur is coming from Sumerian "pantur"
Still used in Georgia and Armenia with a similar name as far as I know.

Ney too, as far as I know goes far back to ancient times. But then again many insturments have their predecessors

Originally Posted by dogukan

I have read from lots of sources that Tambur is coming from Sumerian "pantur"
Still used in Georgia and Armenia with a similar name as far as I know.

Ney too, as far as I know goes far back to ancient times. But then again many insturments have their predecessors

The certain is that it was known since the antiquity and therefore indicates a continuous use of the instrument in Istanbul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambouras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandura

Maybe, I just speaking from the etymologic dictionary of course you can check the Sevan Nişanyan's online etymologic dictionary, Nişanyan himself an Armenian, I don't think that he could miss that detail

Btw is Sufi music part of the classic music ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlI6y...eature=related

+rep for a great thread containing some beautiful music. I enjoyed the more traditional pieces over the mix of eastern and western classical styles. The Tambur being played by hand by bow sounded nothing like I've heard before and Dede Effendi's compositions were also a joy to listen to. This has really perked my interest.

Originally Posted by Erebus26

+rep for a great thread containing some beautiful music. I enjoyed the more traditional pieces over the mix of eastern and western classical styles. The Tambur being played by hand by bow sounded nothing like I've heard before and Dede Effendi's compositions were also a joy to listen to. This has really perked my interest.

The more modern ones are of course more "pop" or lets say more in the way that they reach a larger audience(keep in mind that this tradition is not growing). However, the lyrics and the way they are made(makams) are very strict. Thats the thing with Ottoman classical music, it is not elastic at all, which is why they are very difficult to compose. There hundreds of rules one have to keep in mind.


As an history buff, I know why you like the old ones better. The ones which are sounding more "modern" are just easier to sing(and hence more common in today's fasıls-its about making money for taverns, the city has a very dynamic ppulation so things have changed a lot). Some of this stuff is even impossible for a Turk to understand. The Ottomanish is too heavy at some

I have fairly large collection of both though.

I'd put my sign under this album by Jordi Savall in case you like the old stuff. Like many of his stuff, this is a must have for me. And the insturments, the way the songs are played are strictly 17th century


and Harem'de Neşe, by Golden Horn Ensemble


These two albums are relatively easier to listen and very traditional, some great pieces are in them. Keep in mind that this music gets very difficult to listen sometimes because of its strict rules.


I found this recently and liked it and thought I'd just add it here as a bonus

Originally Posted by dogukan

I found this recently and liked it and thought I'd just add it here as a bonus

This is magnificent not only as a piece of music, but for the place it has been recorded.

This is nice music, but how much of it is 100% authentic?

Originally Posted by Babur

This is nice music, but how much of it is 100% authentic?

Notes are the same, so there is not much question on the compositions....except sometimes there only minor differences in the way they are played but thats not a massive difference.

They key than would be insturments..in the last decades new insturments and pop influence came in, but most of the groups who play this music try to stay strictly authentic.
There are now choirs and ensembles like in western classical...but back in the day, it was probably a few instrumentalists and singers just coming together.

Originally Posted by dogukan

The more modern ones are of course more "pop" or lets say more in the way that they reach a larger audience(keep in mind that this tradition is not growing). However, the lyrics and the way they are made(makams) are very strict. Thats the thing with Ottoman classical music, it is not elastic at all, which is why they are very difficult to compose. There hundreds of rules one have to keep in mind.

I'm not really a musician like yourself so I was hoping you could enlighten me on the rules you have to follow and tell me for example how Ottoman/Turkish classical music is different from Western classical music in regards to those rules.

Originally Posted by dogukan

As an history buff, I know why you like the old ones better. The ones which are sounding more "modern" are just easier to sing(and hence more common in today's fasıls-its about making money for taverns, the city has a very dynamic ppulation so things have changed a lot). Some of this stuff is even impossible for a Turk to understand. The Ottomanish is too heavy at some

I suppose that is the historian in me coming out. I just like the more traditional pieces of music of other countries, whether it's Turkey or the Balkans. In fact I'm not a big fan of classical music. Now that is not to say I don't like it but I've always been one for traditional folk music or music that makes use of traditional instruments. However what you have shown me in this thread has perked my interest...

Originally Posted by dogukan

I'd put my sign under this album by Jordi Savall in case you like the old stuff. Like many of his stuff, this is a must have for me. And the insturments, the way the songs are played are strictly 17th century


and Harem'de Neşe, by Golden Horn Ensemble


These two albums are relatively easier to listen and very traditional, some great pieces are in them. Keep in mind that this music gets very difficult to listen sometimes because of its strict rules.

Thank-you very much for pointing me in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Erebus26

I'm not really a musician like yourself so I was hoping you could enlighten me on the rules you have to follow and tell me for example how Ottoman/Turkish classical music is different from Western classical music in regards to those rules.

Heh, I'm not that much experinced to call myself a musician. Although I take listening to music more seriously than many others and I have been playing a bowed instrument for a year now.

Also, I'm don't know the techniques of this music as much, I just know that there are many confusing rules and styles which are composed/played in certain order and stuff.
Understanding this "makam" system would a good answer to your question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makam

I suppose that is the historian in me coming out. I just like the more traditional pieces of music of other countries, whether it's Turkey or the Balkans. In fact I'm not a big fan of classical music. Now that is not to say I don't like it but I've always been one for traditional folk music or music that makes use of traditional instruments. However what you have shown me in this thread has perked my interest...

We have a thing in common then Like I said, I'm a person of classical tastes and that mostly comes from my interest in history.
My favorite types of music are classicals and folk music+with traditional insturments in authentic atmosphere.
My collection of Anatolian(Turkish, Kurdish, Armenian, Assyrian, Greek, Pontian, Georgian....etc) folk music is even larger(I play a folk insturment myself, and do its folk dance as well-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z84gjBgVIe4)...and I have always thought the folk music in Anatolia is much richer compared to many other parts of the world. A lot lies in the depths of Anatolia.

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I'll add some more songs I like and believe easy to listen for those who are interested.
For some reason the voice of this female singer and the band with her sounded great to me, it also has a more traditional feeling.


by Servet Yesari Bey, apparently only two of his works reached today. And this one is great.


two great pieces one after other by Tanburi Mustafa Çavuş(1700-1770?).(second one is the one I shared earlier, Dök Zülfünü Meydane Gel)


This one I shared earlier is apparently by same band, and the one I kept singing this whole day.


Looks like we have owe Selim III much more since as far as I know, art flourished greatly during his rule.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A great lover of music, Sultan Selim III was a composer and performer of significant talent. He created fourteen makam-s (melodic types), three of which are in current use today. Sixty-four compositions by Selim III are known today, some of which are part of the regular repertory of Turkish classical musicney (reed flute) and tanbur performerance. Aside from composing music, Selim III also performed on the (long-necked, fretted lute).
Selim III's interest in music started in his days as a prince (shahzade) when he studied under Kırımlı Ahmet Kamil Efendi and Tanburi İzak Efendi. He was especially respectful of Tanburi İzak Efendi, and it is recounted that the Sultan rose in respect when Tanburi İzak Efendi entered the court.
As a patron of the arts, Selim III encouraged musicians of his day, including Dede Efendi and Baba Hamparsum. The Hamparsum notation system that Selim commissioned became the dominant notation for Turkish and Armenian music. His name is associated with a school in Classical Turkish Music due to the revival and re-birth of music at his court. Selim III was also interested in western music and in 1797 invited an opera troupe for the first opera performance in the Ottoman Empire.
Writing under the nom de plume ″İlhami,″ Selim's poetry is collected in a divan. Among regular attendees of his court were Şeyh Galip, one of the greatest Ottoman poets.
Selim III was a member of the Mevlevi Order of Sufi Whirling Dervishes, and entered into the order at the Galata Mevlevihanesi under the name ″Selim Dede.″ He was a renowned composer, creating many musical compositions, including a Mevlevi ayin, a long and complex liturgical form performed during the semâMevlana (Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Balkhi-Rumi) Tariqah of Sufi Whirlingmakam (religious ceremonies) of the Mystics, in Suzidilara.
He extended his patronage to Antoine Ignace Melling, whom he appointed as the court architect in 1795. Melling constructed a number of palaces and other buildings for the Sultan and created engravings of contemporary Constantinople.

One more, recent composition(1930s)...shows how just a woman with a beautiful voice and a man with a tambur is enough for this sort of music.



And this last one is one of the bests but it is more in "modern" form so it just sounds like a Turkish song Great nonetheless, composed by Münir Nurettin Selçuk who also composed the song above.

Also a connection between the Byzantine and Ottoman music can be seen through this:
(Also a possible root of Smyrneika and Rebetika )

Great one Neop, I'm so buying that album once I find it.
Ottoman palace music is indeed mostly based on Byzantine palace music. Like I said, it is the music of Constantinople

Another good example here


Its the wave of nationalism that came with republic which tries to Turkify everything in this music and insturments as well. Contradiction is that, these people very well that many of the great composers were Greeks and Armenians, even the notation system was founded by an Armenian, Harpatsum Limonciyan.

Ottoman classical music is common among Greeks as well, but mostly among musicians and probably those who have their origin in Istanbul....This whole tavern thing is coming from Byzantine Greek culture but modern day Greeks don't seem to be much interested in this even though they have as much share as Turks have with this genre....same with Armenians.

The name of the taverns we go to for this sort(does not have to be in the "fasıl" context) still have Greek names. There are songs written in Ottoman classical for "Giorgos's tavern".....
Nostalgia always gets me, I feel like those were the days when İstanbul was really İstanbul with all its cultures.

wow awesome stuff I've seen so far! Listening to the female harem voice now! Truly awesome stuff! I'll look into this thread with more detail tomorrow..

+rep for detailed article.

Thought this music too elite for me. I am for more popular ones. I must say I have not much music ear.

Dogukan, I think you can categorise this music in two;
1. Pure Turkish Classical Music : elite, art for sake of art
2. Popular Turkish Classical Music : populist, more enjoyable.

Turkish Classical pieces are in well defined rules though. So I can't make that categorization, as a piece is either classical or not
Even the recently composed pieces are created under these rules of this music.

It is the way they are played in popular culture that makes them look different. But those pieces will look as authentic as a piece in 18th century once it is played by a proper band and choir.
Some of those "popular" sounding pieces were composed 200 years ago.

So I guess itd be wrong to do that

bonus:


Now that I think of it, most of these pieces has awesome lyrics(which are pretty much all Ottoman poetry)
Now I understand my literature teacher better

Nice thread + rep

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