Time to Divide up Christendom?

[Dave Scarface]

I was just thinking about how religion in M2TW was so unbalanced towards Catholic factions and remains to be so in most mods. How about instead of just having 1 Christian religion in the west Catholicism, we added Protestantism in as well? I realise of course that this is completely unhistoricial and that the protestant reformation did not take place until the 16th century. But should that mean we have to rule out this idea? Instead of having 19 Catholic factions under call to Crusade by the Pope, against 4 Islamic factions, 3 Orthodox factions, 1 Mesoamerican. Wouldn't it be a lot better balanced if we had say 15 Catholic factions, 4 Protestant factions, 4 Islamic factions, 3 Orthodox? If Christianity is divided in the east with pagans thrown in too, then why should every faction in the west be under 1 religion? See the problem here or not at all? What if we had England, HRE, Denmark, Norway break away from the Pope? like/dislike?

Let us remember that this is a game first and foremost before we should consider the absolute importantce of historical accuracy in a game. Also for instance in 1180 AD the Aztecs should not be discoverable for at least a few more hundred years but they are in and rightfully so. The mongol invasion of europe has not yet even begun, the Teutonic Order is not yet established and so on. Dare we go one step further and divide up the Catholic powers? How about it? let us hear your arguements. I am talking about a submod here not the new patch.

Dave

[Cope]

I'm not sure of the possibilities of adding in a new religion via an event trigger. If that could be done it would be better - say Protestantism springs up around 1400 or so.

Too be honest, I don't think the game is illbalanced, since most of the time I play a campaign Egypt or the Moors end up taking over a huge swathe of the map and become very powerful nations - almost as powerful as myself.

Although religion plays an important role, most players, I imagine, would spend most of their time at war with factions of their same faith so the amount of nations pertaining to a certain religion tends not to be advantagous in any event. Furthermore, Crusader armies sent by the Catholics tend to hinder progress of the player since their main objectives often centre around regions, such as Jerusalem, that are targets for the crusade.

All this aside, I would love to see Protestantism integrated into the late game! would be an interesting dynamic.

[Dave Scarface]

I like the idea a great deal. I often get tired playing a western faction that has to answer to the Pope. I would enjoy being able to play a major power without having to worry about upsetting the Pope by not answering his call to Crusades or fighting with a neighbor. It is some times frustrating to have an enemy 'on the ropes' only to have to delay the final victory in order to avoid excommunication. One question, will the Protestants be targets for Crusades?

Whilst it would be more likely that a Crusade gets called upon a Protestant faction than a Catholic faction. I have the mod setup in such a way atm that the Pope is very heavily biased towards a Crusade in the Holy lands with Cairo being the number 1 Crusade target. I don't think this will change much if a few factions started off with the Protestant religion. Lithuania is a good example, I've all but stopped Crusades now on Vilnius because imo Crusades interfered with the balance of power in the Baltic too much.

I'm not sure of the possibilities of adding in a new religion via an event trigger. If that could be done it would be better - say Protestantism springs up around 1400 or so.

Too be honest, I don't think the game is illbalanced, since most of the time I play a campaign Egypt or the Moors end up taking over a huge swathe of the map and become very powerful nations - almost as powerful as myself.

Although religion plays an important role, most players, I imagine, would spend most of their time at war with factions of their same faith so the amount of nations pertaining to a certain religion tends not to be advantagous in any event. Furthermore, Crusader armies sent by the Catholics tend to hinder progress of the player since their main objectives often centre around regions, such as Jerusalem, that are targets for the crusade.

All this aside, I would love to see Protestantism integrated into the late game! would be an interesting dynamic.

I can fully understand your misgivings about starting England, HRE, Denmark and Norway out as Protestants. And if fans hate this idea too much I will simply drop it. I could of course do what I like because it is my mod. But I prefer to ask the community what they think before I go ahead and make big changes. So I would like to try and come to some agreement on whether this is a good idea for the mod or not.

Let us imagine for a moment what these religion changes might actually mean in the campaign. Firstly, Protestant England would start surrounded by Catholic France, Ireland, and Scotland. The Holy Roman Empire who are already very rebellious against the Pope anyway might be well suited to a breakaway Christian religion. Denmark and Norway would be spreading their new heretical religion in the Baltic regions. This does not mean that Cathoilc factions would be set on war against Protestants, but it certainly makes for an interesting clash of religions in Europe. Can Catholicism remain the dominant religion in Western Europe for example?

Dave

[vietanh797]

can we trigger a script that remove some nations from pope power and change their faith(like Lithuania accept to be under pope rule) ?
not sure we need to chose a specific turn or a certain requirement but I think that script is possible, isn't it?

[Stylix]

I like the idea a great deal. I often get tired playing a western faction that has to answer to the Pope. I would enjoy being able to play a major power without having to worry about upsetting the Pope by not answering his call to Crusades or fighting with a neighbor. It is some times frustrating to have an enemy 'on the ropes' only to have to delay the final victory in order to avoid excommunication. One question, will the Protestants be targets for Crusades?

[Cope]

I do find it kind of annoying when the Pope calls a crusade against somewhere stupid like Reims - as if anyone cares about that place anyway lol.

[Magefsx]

Is there really a need for it? As far as I remember (I havn't tried it out yet, btw) there was already enough war in europe, without introducing another hostile element to the mix, and especially in the british isles. I think it should be kept the way it is (simply put, I don't think I'd like it. It's way too out of the time period. Perhaps as a scripted late game event, but definately not to start out with).
That's mostly just personal opinion with no real justification, but that's what I feel.
I think this would be more suited towards a submod.

I like the idea a great deal. I often get tired playing a western faction that has to answer to the Pope. I would enjoy being able to play a major power without having to worry about upsetting the Pope by not answering his call to Crusades or fighting with a neighbor. It is some times frustrating to have an enemy 'on the ropes' only to have to delay the final victory in order to avoid excommunication. One question, will the Protestants be targets for Crusades?

You'd be upsetting the pope by being a protestant nation anyway, which is how I think it ought to be implemented, and would be a more popular target for a crusade than an excommunicee. At least as a Catholic nation you can choose to reconcile or remain excommunicated.

[Dave Scarface]

Is there really a need for it? As far as I remember (I havn't tried it out yet, btw) there was already enough war in europe, without introducing another hostile element to the mix, and especially in the british isles. I think it should be kept the way it is (simply put, I don't think I'd like it. It's way too out of the time period. Perhaps as a scripted late game event, but definately not to start out with).
That's mostly just personal opinion with no real justification, but that's what I feel.
I think this would be more suited towards a submod.

I believe I explained the need above quite clearly, whilst there are religious conflicts in eastern europe and the middle east. There is non in the west apart from with the moors in Spain. Catholics in the west may as well not have any priests at all as there is literally no need for them other than to kill a few heretics. I realise though that this idea may be more acceptable if it is scripted to happen late in the campaign. Also, if Lithuanians can convert to Catholicism why not vise versa? why should no factions be allowed to leave the faith at some stage? I look forward to your reply.

Dave

[Stylix]

You'd be upsetting the pope by being a protestant nation anyway, which is how I think it ought to be implemented, and would be a more popular target for a crusade than an excommunicee. At least as a Catholic nation you can choose to reconcile or remain excommunicated.

I respectfully disagree. Look at how the Pope deals with the Orthodox nations or pagan factions. Dave has already commented in a previous post that the Crusades are weighted towards the Muslim factions. Also, if I get excommunicated by not stopping my 'aggression' with my Catholic neighbors, I lose all my Catholic allies (which is just about all of Western Europe) as well as all my trade agreements with them. This is almost always suicide on the higher difficulty levels. If I had Protestant allies and trade agreements, these at least would be safe from the influence of the Pople.

[Ninjakitty]

I think u should add it, it´s like Stylix says.. the pope is a pain in the ass when u are up against a catholic neighbor.. And protestant allied could solve the problems tbh. I´d say give it a go Norway, Denmark, England, and HRE as protestants could be fun!

[Dominick]

This is kinda overdoing it for me. I'd say yes for an event about protestantism popping out if too much factions get excommunicated in the late game, otherwise no.

[Cope]

As an Englishman, this would be a great addition. Its not like I actually want to be allied with Europe when I play this game anyway.

[Dave Scarface]

Is there really a need for it? As far as I remember (I havn't tried it out yet, btw) there was already enough war in europe, without introducing another hostile element to the mix, and especially in the british isles. I think it should be kept the way it is (simply put, I don't think I'd like it. It's way too out of the time period. Perhaps as a scripted late game event, but definately not to start out with).
That's mostly just personal opinion with no real justification, but that's what I feel.
I think this would be more suited towards a submod.

Actually, now I've thought on it more you are probably right about a submod friend. I think this should come as a small optional submod which anyone can use if they wish alongside KGCM patch 4.3. I would definately like to make it possible for some factions to leave the Cathoilc faith and become Protestant factions. But I don't think I really have to make this part of the patch. I would also encourage others to make their own submods for KGCM with different religious options and more choices to make in the campaign.

Dave

[invicta]

My 2 cents: you might want to consider as an alternative to protestants idea, to opt for Ghibellines idea. At the time HRE and a bit later France too, wanted to get free from Papal influence and rather the tried (and France succeeded too) in influencing themselves part of the catholic world (see the Western Schism ).There are other mods too, that allow to certain factions to detach from the Catholic church and make their own one electing also an Anti-Pope (I believe SS is one of them and also another italian mod named Bellum Crucis).
Among those faction I'd put France (see the Avignon Papacy), HRE and England (with a script that might give them the choice to detach themselves by the Catholic church if excommunicated).
Also there were at the time heresy waves, but there are probably not suitable faction to be represented as such.

[Zmflavius]

My 2 cents: you might want to consider as an alternative to protestants idea, to opt for Ghibellines idea. At the time HRE and a bit later France too, wanted to get free from Papal influence and rather the tried (and France succeeded too) in influencing themselves part of the catholic world (see the Western Schism ).There are other mods too, that allow to certain factions to detach from the Catholic church and make their own one electing also an Anti-Pope (I believe SS is one of them and also another italian mod named Bellum Crucis).
Among those faction I'd put France (see the Avignon Papacy), HRE and England (with a script that might give them the choice to detach themselves by the Catholic church if excommunicated).
Also there were at the time heresy waves, but there are probably not suitable faction to be represented as such.

The Western Schism seems to me to be the best way to implement this, along with other Anti-Pope options. However, Western Schism takes place a bit late IMO.

[Stylix]

The Western Schism seems to me to be the best way to implement this, along with other Anti-Pope options. However, Western Schism takes place a bit late IMO.

Let us remember that this is a game first and foremost before we should consider the absolute importantce of historical accuracy in a game. Also for instance in 1180 AD the Aztecs should not be discoverable for at least a few more hundred years but they are in and rightfully so. The mongol invasion of europe has not yet even begun, the Teutonic Order is not yet established and so on. Dare we go one step further and divide up the Catholic powers? How about it? let us hear your arguements.

[adigi]

I know I only have a couple of post but I’ve been reading this forum for over a year and a half now. I’ve been playing this particular mode since 4.1 and love it.
As for the topic of religion, I play as England vh/vh most of the time. I don’t see the importance of religion in the game. I never do anything the pope wants and get excommunicated all the time. I’m more out with the pope in terms of turns than in and have inquisitors always roaming around my land. Like someone else said, apart from burning a couple of heretics at the stakes there is no real reason for me to train a priest and most of the time I just allow heretics to roam wherever they want unmolested as building up my churches takes care of any harm they can do.

Now if priests could burn other priests of other religions and the heretics and those damn inquisitors then by all means change the religion.

Overall I feel the religious aspect of the game is one big failure. It’s very incomplete and to me it has no bearing on the game at all.

For the record, I do play HRE and the Teutonic Empire from time to time and do the exact same thing with them I stated above.

[Dave Scarface]

The Western Schism seems to me to be the best way to implement this, along with other Anti-Pope options. However, Western Schism takes place a bit late IMO.

I think I am more interested in giving factions the option to join/break away from Catholicism. A splitting up of the Cathoilc church itself does not really interest me at all. And I am not sure how that would work because priests would still all be Cathoilc, just following different Popes.

I suggest that once there is a faction get excommunicated the event will be trigger and protestant will start
with this the factions which have protestant script will be harder since they have to deal with the different religion

I think this may very well be the most sensible way to go. Excommunicated factions must get a choice though and there should NOT be any automatic conversions.

Overall I feel the religious aspect of the game is one big failure. It’s very incomplete and to me it has no bearing on the game at all.

Yes, but you forget though that recruitment can be tied into a regions local beliefs. For example I can make a factions units require a certain religious percentage for them to be recruitable within a region. I would not apply this to all units though, religious unrest should not stop all recruitment in a region entirely. Even the mercs within a region can be set to require certain religious percentages.

Dave

[ErmanesTheSecond]

Yes i think this would be good actually...
What 3rd orthodox faction? Theres Byzantium and Russia and??.....oh, the new Novgorod faction.
I was a little annoyed that the Commenian name was spelled Kommenos, but i fixed that easily.
What im most annoyed about is that ass pope-a-jerk, for one he always declares a crusade on somewhere ridiculous,For some reason it was always toulouse in the original M2TW, i guess thats accurate to the Albegisinian crusade, but....
I hate the fact that when i play as Scotland i cant beat England or Norway to hell without the Pope warning me to stop, historically those powers were always at war in the middle ages and Scotland and England really never had peace, also i dont think either cared what the Pope had to say to them, i know you tried to tune down the popes agressiveness, but its only blantantly obvious as a non-catholic faction, if you play as any Catholic faction its excommunication here, crusade there, Cardinal dies there, some faction or other hogging the Cardinal seats so factions like Ireland and Wales dont get spots etc.
Yes id agree making a protestant reformation happen around 1500, why not change the game date to end in 1600, and make every turn 2.5 years to compensate?
Or have like a total reniassiance Reformation happen around 1400, like the actual The Reformation persay?

IF you wanna do the break away from the church thing, that would be perfect!, but then what religion will those break away factions become then?
You could always add the Anti-pope script like they have in Das Heilige Romansche Reich mod.

[vietanh797]

I suggest that once there is a faction get excommunicated the event will be trigger and protestant will start
with this the factions which have protestant script will be harder since they have to deal with the different religion