1390 map and late campaign

[Fair Prince]

Enough with the Georgia man. Your every post in every thread is Georgia this, Georgia that.. Give it a rest.

Please lern to mod and make your own "All Georgia" mod and stop bugging people with your Georgia posts.

First, this thread belongs to Ichon, not you - if it doesn't bother him then how come you rebuke a guy here who just wants to help?
Admittedly, daraca is enthusiastic about his country, but he's also very knowledgeable about it, if you haven't noticed it already. That said, instead of making retarded comments like 'please lern to mod' perhaps it's you who should give it a rest.

[Serbian Hussar]

I'm sorry, did I hit the "lern to mod" nerv? How are your projects coming on? But you're right. This belongs to Ichon and it's not polite to continue this here. Maybe Georgia thread is more suitable, he's been bumping that thread and quadruposting for ages. Don't know what moderators are doing..

[Ichon]

Daraca is a tireless advocate of Georgia there is no question about that. In this case I did actually ask him for more info on Georgia so I can't tell him not to post. I think he would better spend his efforts convincing FP or someone else who wants to see Georgia included for the 1132 map where I think case for Georgia as a faction is quite strong.

For 1390 it is more difficult proposition to include Georgia. Frankly I almost did not include ERE as a faction since their demise comes quite quick and the political situation makes a revival after 1390 quite unlikely. However things might have gone quite differently as the result of just a couple battles that Ottomans could have lost or lost even more badly. Georgia on the other hand had to deal not only with Timur but surrounding Turk factions. Without aid from Genoa/Venice, Georgia would have issues controlling any trade routes which could simply move north or south around them. Georgia roster would also have to be constructed mostly fresh which is more work.

I understand where Serbian Hussar is coming from though... I've been advocating for a late campaign map for nearly a year or maybe longer and no one did it so finally with Serbian Hussar volunteering his geomod skills I figured I can do the rest of EDB work to finally get a late campaign. I think daraca might think about starting his own Georgia project submod and get further than asking others to include it.

Maybe come up with a complete roster that is not over powered. For me to include it in 1390 I need to see evidence of Georgia as a coherent kingdom after Timur because what I've read indicates Georgia fell into chaos with more than 1 successor claiming rulership etc.

[Ichon]

Poland... addition of Poznan and Lublin instead of Thorn and Halych. If the map builds roads near Halych it can definitely be included as a PSF but just putting a PSF in the middle of nowhere I don't like.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The SS map actually does fairly good job on the geography of the terrain but I think sometimes doesn't put enough trees or hills. For example in Bohemia the amount of hills could be a little more and definitely needs more forest. The area around Clermont on current SS map should have hills extending further west as well. Also- I am trying to decide what rivers should be included. I think a few more but only the larger ones. Oder is already on SS map but might be extended but what about tributaries? I think maybe small branches near the main river might be included but not the whole length- does adding more rivers make geomod much more difficult?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Changed the color from black to white- its easier to read, I think I'll stay with white from here on out.

[sven18]

please donțt forget for Moldavia-as a faction-1359 oficial historical date of the begining

and what family tree will have Faction Moldavia??

[Caesar Clivus]

Don't know what moderators are doing..

The Georgia thread is a thread for (shock horror) posting information about Georgia, which daraca is doing. If he was posting in every thread advocating Georgia then we would have a problem with that. But he's not, so we dont. End of discussion, back on topic.

[Ichon]

please donțt forget for Moldavia-as a faction-1359 oficial historical date of the begining

and what family tree will have Faction Moldavia??

Moldavia is not a faction currently. We can't put everything in and basically I choose Serbian Despotate because it once controlled most of Serbia and has an interesting history with Ottomans while this era without Wallachia seems quite strange.

If factions change in the future it will probably be in this order-

Dropped- Ak Koyunlu, ERE, Hafsids, Serbian Despotate, Scotland, Crown of Aragon, Jalayrids.

New factions to replace would be- Crimean Khanate, Bohemia, Genoa, Georgia, Moldavia, Khivan Khanate.

[sven18]

when the mod will be done? or in plan..

[Ichon]

when the mod will be done? or in plan..

The first part of map and basic port of factions will be done sometime in November maybe- its difficult to say for certain but I think before December for sure.

Phase 2 will take much longer but the speed depends on if I get some help for reskin of rosters etc. I can do the EDB edits and some scripts for the first part but building roster from new is much harder.



Next part of the maps...

NW HRE- many changes here...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Xoxoman]

I dunno about Amsterdam.. but if I am right, it wasn't there in the 1390's?

[Ichon]

I dunno about Amsterdam.. but if I am right, it wasn't there in the 1390's?

It had city rights sometime in the early 1300s and was frequently mentioned as a Hansa trade center. It did not have stone walls until late 1400s though so maybe should start as T2 not T3.

[Xoxoman]

It had city rights sometime in the early 1300s and was frequently mentioned as a Hansa trade center. It did not have stone walls until late 1400s though so maybe should start as T2 not T3.

Oh.. allright, then it should be good.

[Makrell]

Its called denmark-norway not just denmark. Thinking it as just denmark is historically inaccurate, as for the whole union the king was king of denmark and norway, not one nationk, but two. Each new kingelection they could have chosen different kings, but didnt

[Ichon]

Its called denmark-norway not just denmark. Thinking it as just denmark is historically inaccurate, as for the whole union the king was king of denmark and norway, not one nationk, but two. Each new kingelection they could have chosen different kings, but didnt

Good point- that is an easy to change to make.

[Ichon]

N France is complicated to portray- several regions close by and as the most populated and richest part of France most wars went through here. Flanders will be merged with Artois since Burgundy starts in control of Artois and had earlier inherited Flanders through marriage. Brussels by this point is probably the most important city in the area while Bruges is entering its golden age and only silting prevents it from being dominant in the region to the present era. Arras is the center of Flanders wool industry with the best textiles in Europe. Brussels in 1390 is already moving past wool and textiles into small manufactures and banking along with Antwerp though both are still aways from their golden ages. Heavily cultivated areas on the map should start at current Bruges-Brussels-Arras. Also from Rouen to Paris. More forests around Calais and Rheims than on current map.

Most of the major roads will have at least 1 PSF between regions as this area of France was one of the most heavily fortified by 1390s.

Honestly not sure of Arras over Bruges but the main reason is Burgundy had possession of Arras much longer than Bruges while on the timeline 1390-1650 Bruges declines in importance compared to Brabant cities like Antwerp and Brussels. Originally I had put Bruges and Arras both in and Bruges starting independent with Arras under Burgundy but then that part of the map is a real cluster of cities which is probably bad for gameplay. I am entertaining the notion of Bruges over Arras since Bruges and Brussels were probably the nearest cities in size to Paris and Venice before 1600s.

Paris has 8 land connections which should make it quite rich city while Arras or Bruges would have 4 + port connections to 2-3 more which will also allow quite rich trade. Antwerp will be even richer- 5-6 land connections + port but it will start much smaller.

Trier, Verdun, Besancon, Troyes, Nevers, Orleans, and Rouen are also added. Rivers a changed slightly with Mosel getting largest change.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

West France compared to N France is very easy area. Brest is growing in importance as a port and is the 2nd port of the English fleet for awhile when it is away from London and Norwich during 100 years war.






SE France gets complicated again and particularly this is one of the main areas that has bothered me intensely on the current SS map. Most of the Alps needs to be fixed. Swiss lakes moved, Bern moved, Zurich added, 3 mountains passes added. Northern area of Alps shifted as lakes are moved to make room for Besancon, Nice added to represent Provence and later Savoy.

Some geography changes in central S France as well. Rounded shapes are hills, the /\ are mountains.

[Serbian Hussar]

Nice (not Nice ). Are those geography changes realy that important?

[Ichon]

Nice (not Nice ). Are those geography changes realy that important?

The area around Clermont probably not. Moving the rivers in N France is not absolutely necessary but it would look weird to have Paris or Trier not on the rivers that were the main reason for their existence. We could leave the cities where they are but especially in the case of Trier that would leave it very close to other city in this case Cologne. Paris if it is a lot of work to move can stay, its only a little bit off but Mosel is definitely too far north and putting Trier on its bank would be too close to Cologne.

The only ones which I think are really necessary are the changes in the Alps. There needs room to fit in Besancon and the current mountain passes are just messed up. Lake Geneva should be moved east etc.

If the mountain passes are alot of work you can maybe skip Bernard pass as despite it being the main entrance from France for gameplay it wouldn't be bad to force France or Italy to go the long way.

There should not be a pass straight north from Milan into Swiss lands either. The pass there was quite difficult to navigate most of the year and few armies traveled that way. The pass a bit to the east of Milan is a bit better but I suppose you could leave it off the map if its too much trouble. Next screenshot will be the east side of the Alps and the pass there is going to be aligned more towards Verona and not Venice and could be the only pass thru the Alps but the Alps would be better with at least 2 passes for gameplay in my opinion. The small long pass to the north of Lake Geneva is not strictly necessary.

Verona, Triese, Parma, Florence added to N Italy.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Fair Prince]

Ichon, I advise you to follow suit and install bane's excellent Toggle Campaign Map Hud minimod, that way you'll be able to capture the full size of the screen and you won't have to cut the lower part all the time.

[Serbian Hussar]

The passes look good. Maybe some PSF could be added to block the way. Trent could be the one between Verona and Tyrol. Don't know about blocking the pass to Milan. It could be blocked only with PSF in place of Lugano. Your chioce

[Ichon]

The passes look good. Maybe some PSF could be added to block the way. Trent could be the one between Verona and Tyrol. Don't know about blocking the pass to Milan. It could be blocked only with PSF in place of Lugano. Your chioce

I don't know about any PSF in the passes. I'd prefer to let the terrain do the blocking. Perhaps a PSF on the exit out of the pass into HRE.

I reloaded map with pass from Milan. I don't like blocking it either but of the choices the most important passes are Bernard pass SE of Milan and the Verona-Innsbruck passes. The passes above Milan were extremely seasonal and difficult for large armies to navigate. We can't show that in game so if we had to lose a pass those would be ok- the main reason I want it is for a trade route between Swiss and N Italy.

The only issues I see right now after actually putting cities on the map is Flanders and Bologna. I think I might take Arras out and Bruges in while replace Bologna with Ravenna. What do you all think?

BTW- Thanks for that link FP- I had a couple campaigns going for potential AAR and didn't want to restart to use bane's submod but I don't know if I will have time to do any AARs until after this project is finished so I can probably use that.