Is it just me or...

[Silver Legionary]

Is creating a strong economy tougher in BC than in other mods?
I love this mod utterly and completely, but I've been having a tough time as the ERE,
because even though I've had 20+ settlements at one point, I was barely in
the black(3000 florins per turn, at the MOST).

I think it's because General's BGs in this mod have not just average upkeep, but really HIGH
upkeep. It's realistic(especially considering how GODLIKE bodyguards are in BC), but it could be toned down a bit, IMO.


I'm not saying that BG upkeep should be ZERO(it makes it way easier, though, I have that in my BC, lol), but I disagree with it being at least 400+ per non-FL/FH/paranoid FM bodyguard(lol),
considering that most player-controlled factions will have A LOT of bodyguards.
Maybe 200-400ish tops?

Also, I'm using rusnmat's RBBR or whatever submod, it's awesome, but I wonder if that
would affect this problem of mine at all.

[Harith]

considering that most player-controlled factions will have A LOT of bodyguards.
Maybe 200-400ish tops?

somebody has to pay those men who are willing to fall for u... and pay them big time as well as equipping/training them to the level they became.

If u have a problem.... a simple solution would be to change the family members to heavy cavalry units instead of recruiting one. Of course u wont have to be so careful if u have a lot of them especially that they generate automatically. Also, they are better than most heavy cavalry because the general Bodyguard have more hit points (maybe?), stats and a slight morale increase for providing a general and a huge one depending on his traits.

So, if u have 10 family members... all u have to do is next time u want to conquer a far region and don't want to keep taking back those cavalry for retraining or u want to cut down on expenses... just put 5 of them in the same stack or divide them appropriately and watch how ur victories become simpler and less expensive.

[Silver Legionary]

Yeah, that's true, just stick more than 1 FM in a stack, play the battles
well, and watch the victories(and after that, money) pile up.

I was thinking of that, I'll try that.

[Vanguard13]

I play with Rusnmat's mod on VH/VH. It depends on so many factors relating to how you manage your economy. You should probably 'deny' every single adoption. Avoid your princesses marrying outside of a pre-existing family branch. A smaller family is better.

Upkeep your family in permanent Forts where there upkeep is free, unless the difference they make on the local economy is greater than the upkeep of the family members Bodyguard unit.

Keep minimal garrisons as much as possible. If before a decisive fight you end up recruiting a good number of mercenaries, don't hesitate to disband them after the battle. They'll be there again to recruit when you need them. Saving the money from turn to turn on all this will really help.

Build up the economic and governing buildings. Have one or two that help with health. Agriculture, Roads, Town Halls, Mines, Markets.
Stay away from building up your military buildings until you're really in the black.

[Khwarezm]

Perhaps is that small group of elite nationalistic units willing to fight for free, because they are so brainwashed by propaganda. I can remember that the upkeep for those indian elphant bodyguards is even higher (around a thousand).

[Jugurta]

I think its better this way because its more realistic, having every city max developed with top tier buildings is kinda silly, now you need to make a choice in face of the scarcity of resources, you face a situation that every empire and empror had to solve

[Dago Red]

You have to make choices, you can only afford for 1 or 2 places can have a big armory or a top stable, but that's just more realistic. you don't need every city churning out trebuchets and high level spies. The economy is tough but all you need to do is manage it. rusnmat makes things a bit more complex, which can be harder in some instances (also removes some kings purse bonuses and the like) but there are also added benefits to buildings. Many come with a benefit and a downside, you have to balance what, when and where you can build.

I would not lower upkeep at all, I'd actually want to see it increased for every unit category except the professional, who represent no loss to labor force or agricultural and are part of a standing army. Do you know how much it costs to house and feed and arm men, especially with quality arms? Worse, the loss of labor and diminished goods output would really strain. but there also needs to be increased bonuses for sitting on enemy territory where trade and goods can be intercepted, and countrysides can be plundered. Also free upkeep for more units where it makes sense could be implemented.

[Silver Legionary]

You have to make choices, you can only afford for 1 or 2 places can have a big armory or a top stable, but that's just more realistic. you don't need every city churning out trebuchets and high level spies. The economy is tough but all you need to do is manage it. rusnmat makes things a bit more complex, which can be harder in some instances (also removes some kings purse bonuses and the like) but there are also added benefits to buildings. Many come with a benefit and a downside, you have to balance what, when and where you can build.

^This, this, A THOUSAND TIMES this. This is probably the only mod I've played where I can't have top tier buildings everywhere without economic management... It's a HUGE challenge, but it's most definitely worth it to get the awesome units and feel like it was worth it to get them.

As to your second point, I wholeheartedly agree, especially about free upkeep.

[mAIOR]

You have to make choices, you can only afford for 1 or 2 places can have a big armory or a top stable, but that's just more realistic. you don't need every city churning out trebuchets and high level spies. The economy is tough but all you need to do is manage it. rusnmat makes things a bit more complex, which can be harder in some instances (also removes some kings purse bonuses and the like) but there are also added benefits to buildings. Many come with a benefit and a downside, you have to balance what, when and where you can build.

I would not lower upkeep at all, I'd actually want to see it increased for every unit category except the professional, who represent no loss to labor force or agricultural and are part of a standing army. Do you know how much it costs to house and feed and arm men, especially with quality arms? Worse, the loss of labor and diminished goods output would really strain. but there also needs to be increased bonuses for sitting on enemy territory where trade and goods can be intercepted, and countrysides can be plundered. Also free upkeep for more units where it makes sense could be implemented.

This is a very good idea. It'd be even better if one could add a logistic script like the ones in some NTW an ETW mods.
One thing I found crucial in this game is farms. That's usually my first build plan build farms, everywhere! Not only you get extra incoming through farming but more crutially, you'll get a population boost. And trust me, you'll need it! Seriously, You will.. Taxes are huge in this mod and if you raise the population, the income generated by taxes is worth the investment. After 20~30 turns, you'll be on black solidly. During battles you can take 2 approaches. You can either have a small army and conquer slowly or (and the ERE is great for this) you can build 1.5~2 armies (albeit at a serious hit in your finances) and conquer the SoR from opposite directions, This will make them divide their armies and mmake them much more manageable. In my current ERE campaign I'm laying waste to the SoR with an army coming from western Anatolia and another coming from Trebizond. Use the initial cataprhacts with caution cause early in the game there is nothing that can stop them. I usually use a FM for a frontal charge and then wheel my cataphracts though the fanks and kill them dead. You can cause a huge rout like this and shred their cavalry in one single swoop. Shame that most battles are siges though... Cavalry is wasted behind closed walls...



Cheers...

[Yesman101]

While other people have offered their advice (which is spot on), I would also like to throw in that your primary construction, especially when your playing an infantry-centric faction like the Eastern Roman Empire, is to focus on roads. Lots of roads.

Without them your armies will move sluggishly and your trade will suffer. Also, since the AI gets insane bonuses in this game, a wise decision would in fact be to hold on to your armies for a bit, aim for their big cities, and then declare a ceasefire to purposefully let them build the smaller cities up themselves. Try to move spies in when the city is smaller and keep them around until it builds up. Then, when the time is right, get in there, take the city, and you'll find the AI did a nice job of refurbishing it for you.

Also, don't be afraid to go on raids. The money you get from sacking big, far away cities is ESSENTIAL in funding bigger projects. Even if your at mid size, if you have a good general that isn't pre-occupied and a good sized army and navy, send your troops to take a nice, big city like Alexandria, sell all the buildings inside and gift it to the crusaders to make big money and get nice relations. The AI will even be a nice enough pal to rebuild it for you when your gone.

[Silver Legionary]

That is solid advice right there.
I totally did not think of the roads, that will help.

[Vanguard13]

Also, don't recruit any new units until you are in the black solidly for a few turns. Playing on harder difficulties, this may take more than 20 turns, even 40

[Bernardius]

small family, roads, sacking, disbanding units(they are rebuilt quickly)! That works fine for me!

[Dago Red]

I agree a supply and manpower system would be ideal -- such as APE:TI (for ETW) uses. There are values for both, neither of which you can exceed, thus limiting your total recruitment potential. Values tied to population and economic capacity are ideal, but in an ETW mod it works even better because you have 3 theaters. If one theater runs out of manpower, you can raise an army in another (assuming you have a territory there) and ship it over. This happens in the Americas often, for example. Not sure how well a 1 theater system could be balanced right, if it's even possible in MTWII.

But there are other creative ways within this system to limit and control recruitment other than just cost and upkeep, which RBBR + BC is pretty good at. Multi-turn recruitment up to 3, slow replenishment for high end units, and units availability spread across multiple buildings so there must be a huge amount of infrastructure to raise them all (not just barracks, stables and ranges, but walls, roads, ports, churches, etc are required for many units).

[mAIOR]

I agree a supply and manpower system would be ideal -- such as APE:TI (for ETW) uses. There are values for both, neither of which you can exceed, thus limiting your total recruitment potential. Values tied to population and economic capacity are ideal, but in an ETW mod it works even better because you have 3 theaters. If one theater runs out of manpower, you can raise an army in another (assuming you have a territory there) and ship it over. This happens in the Americas often, for example. Not sure how well a 1 theater system could be balanced right, if it's even possible in MTWII.

But there are other creative ways within this system to limit and control recruitment other than just cost and upkeep, which RBBR + BC is pretty good at. Multi-turn recruitment up to 3, slow replenishment for high end units, and units availability spread across multiple buildings so there must be a huge amount of infrastructure to raise them all (not just barracks, stables and ranges, but walls, roads, ports, churches, etc are required for many units).

Yeah I play with RBBR as well. It's awesome. I tried to do a similar mod for Third age a while ago albeit with a different system for armour and just the text part. No animations were touched. I feel like I cannot play a mod with severe armour mismatch. Too much EB I'm afraid...
But yes the multi turn replenishment is great for controlling army composition and you end up getting that much more levies and lighter troops than you intended.

Still it'd be great to give some sort of penalty in morale and loyalty for over stretching your lines. Some sort of trait like the EB ones for supplies in which troops affected would get a morale and loyalty penalty depending on where you are (if you're in a fertile valley, on a mountain or a desert) and what season is it (winters would be harsh, summers and spring the ideal time for warring). It'd be great as it'd impose lulls in the action due to the devastation (already represented in the cities) and unsustainable environment.




Cheers...