Improvement from Marian Reform?

[blue10a5]

I've just completed the Reform and was pretty eager to see the new and famous legion of Rome. But somehow, all I find that is all I can recruit is some unit with not so greater stat than the Polybius or Allied cohorts, but with much higher price. I know when I build the higher barrack, I will get access to better unit, like praetorian, but the cost of the new unit is so high, and yet they aren't really greater than the pre-Marian unit, which I find really disappointing. Can anyone give me an explanation about the Marian reform, and is the unit after the Marian reform really worth the higher price?

[Danius]

Its one of the best units if not the best unit in the game.

[blue10a5]

I know, as most people say they are the deadliest among all. But I mean about the stat scroll. According to the stat scroll, most post-Marian have around the same or a little bit better stat than the pre-Marian, but recruit cost is higher. For example, the Evocates have the identical stat with the Allied Cohort, but they are more expensive than those Cohort. Can you pls explain to me what make the difference between these two?

[rory o'kane]

The legions available after the reforms in the Campus Martius gives you the Army as it was just after the Reforms - "generic" Legions (that would, of course have been numbered, but we can't do that because that's not how RTW works - we can't actually assign numbers to every legion that you recruit sequentially, which is what the Romans actually did).
The Roman Fortress shows the army from the time of Caesar and Pompey to the battle of Actium - some legions gaining nicknames and honours over their careers, and then as a result of their renown surviving the mass disbandment and merging that Octavian (who became the first Emperor, Augustus) did to cut the army down from the 60 legions he'd inherited to the more affordable 28 legion standing army. Though, realistically, the "generic" legions should be available at this point too, as plenty legions with rather short lifespans were raised between the death of Caesar and the battle of Actium.
The Curia Hostilia represents the Roman army after Octavian was granted the honorific "Augustus" by the Senate in 27BC, and so became the first Emperor. As Augustus instituted his own reforms of the Roman army, the "Imperial" legions become available, as lorica segmentata was first used during Augustus' reign, and the Auxilia were created as a regularised replacement for the ad-hoc mess of mercenaries, local troops and tribal levies that had provided the Roman army with specialist troops since before the army was reformed, so what you're looking at there is the actual chronological progression of the Roman army over time between the Reforms of Marius, and those of Augustus (100BC-27BC).
The cost of the post-Marian units are increased because one of the main thrusts of Marius' reforms was that soldiers should be professionals, paid for and equipped by the state, not out of their own pocket - removing property requirements to join the army allowed him to use HUGE numbers of the urban poor to increase the size of the Roman army so that it could cope with the ever-increasing burdens that the rapidly-expanding Roman Republic placed upon it. They are better internally too, I think. But I'm not sure. I just suck it up and use them anyway - one step closer to segmentata goodness.
Oh, and the Evocati are retired legionnaires who have completed their 20 years of service, been discharged, and then recalled to active duty. When they retired, they were allowed to take their cohort and century standards with them, and often kept their equipment as well, so that they were often used as an additional source of manpower for armies - there were roughly 2,000 evocati from Legio XX Valeria Victrix at the Battle of Wattling Street (which constituted about a fifth of the Roman army of 10,000 facing (according to Tacitus) 230,000 Brythonic tribesmen under Boudicca), and they gave a good account of themselves.

[freakkriek]

eu i think he meant the stats-difference and not the history rory o'kane ;-) (was well written btw)
i think he wants to know what the benefit of the Marian reform is when you actually have to pay A LOT more for slightly stronger units. And i agree with him i have been thinking about it too.
i don't know if it's gonna change in next update but shouldn't you make the difference in strenght between pre- and post- marian units bigger. I mean not only the "recruiting" was changed but also training, before the marian reforms training wasn't nearly so effective as after since there was a growth from a part-time army to a professional army. But i don't see it happen to give the XXI-legion (my favorite) even more strength so the only answer would be to weaken the pre-marian units.

in conclusion: it's not logical that the marian-reforms let the Roman empire blossom while in this game it actually sets you back

[Lycaner]

Straight to the point ,
i know this is a bit overpower but can dev team lower the price of the post - marian reform legion or make it much powerful than pre reform
legions.....

[Dramatic Cat]

Straight to the point ,
i know this is a bit overpower but can dev team lower the price of the post - marian reform legion or make it much powerful than pre reform
legions.....

No.

Just no.

[freakkriek]

No.

Just no.

then maybe weaken the pre-marian legions ;-)
i mean the points is being historical accurate no????
i m
get the powerfull units need to be expensive but... it has to make sense

[Imperator of Rome]

Straight to the point ,
i know this is a bit overpower but can dev team lower the price of the post - marian reform legion or make it much powerful than pre reform
legions.....

Why? Marian era Legionaries have basically the same equipment as Principes do.

but as time and commitments in foreign soil grew, this dwindled to a point of crisis

You mean the increased amount of slaves and plantations that led to more rural folk moving into the cities(especially Rome)?

[Dramatic Cat]

Historically accurate?

I thought that the only things different after the reforms was that the army was now a proffesional entity, the state providing equipment, length of the service, elimination of the hastati-principes-triarii scales, and the massive manpower gained by eliminating property requirements.

I've never read anything about the legions becoming more "powerful". Maybe the equipments evolved with time but that's different. Idk wtf you mean by Historically accurate.

You must be doing something wrong if you still think that the legions are underpowered. Their strength lies in the unbreakablity of their lines... which is practically everything in a battle. Their cost is more than fair. Otherwise we would steamroll the map with them.

[freakkriek]

Historically accurate?

I thought that the only things different after the reforms was that the army was now a proffesional entity, the state providing equipment, length of the service, elimination of the hastati-principes-triarii scales, and the massive manpower gained by eliminating property requirements.

I've never read anything about the legions becoming more "powerful". Maybe the equipments evolved with time but that's different. Idk wtf you mean by Historically accurate.

You must be doing something wrong if you still think that the legions are underpowered. Their strength lies in the unbreakablity of their lines... which is practically everything in a battle. Their cost is more than fair. Otherwise we would steamroll the map with them.

first of all i'm not saying you should cut on their costs. you should read what I said.
secondly, I was merely pointing out that the difference between the pré and post- marian units is very small in stats but very big in upkeep, the upkeep looks reasonable because well as you said, the state provided armour,training, etc... but that should result in a more "powerfull" army since every one had good armor and training, so i'm not saying that the final legions should be altered, actually the pre-marian units should be weaker since the difference is very small.This could be obtained by bringing back the principes and giving them the stats of the now polybian cohorts and then some weaker standard hastati (both polybian and allied of course).
That could bring back the motivation of quickly getting the reform because now... well it isn't really a priority is it???

[Sarisophoros]

Historically accurate?

I thought that the only things different after the reforms was that the army was now a proffesional entity, the state providing equipment, length of the service, elimination of the hastati-principes-triarii scales, and the massive manpower gained by eliminating property requirements.

I've never read anything about the legions becoming more "powerful". Maybe the equipments evolved with time but that's different. Idk wtf you mean by Historically accurate.

You must be doing something wrong if you still think that the legions are underpowered. Their strength lies in the unbreakablity of their lines... which is practically everything in a battle. Their cost is more than fair. Otherwise we would steamroll the map with them.

This guy is right actually. They are just fine. If you look through centuries at how roman army developed from hoplite style warfare to 28 legion system you see that they were always very quick to adopt a good thing and totally part with something that did not give results. The men in hastati lines were the same men that formed imperial legions, so to say. The system in which they operated was totally different. Do you think that Praetorians were uberhuman? They were the same as all soldiers of their time only seen as loyal to the right man. Life was tough then, no way to imagine that today. Killing was the only way to stay alive. Guy in a principe line was a capable soldier. The difference was the training in an improved system so I guess the new units could get new experience fighting in a better system. And there they would be more POWERFUL. That is what they actually had. They were also soldiers but who trained together all the time. That brings something too.

[rory o'kane]

The fact that they were professionalised made the legions more efficient for several reasons - you build up an esprit du corps by having permanent units with histories and battle honours to their names, and giving that spirit a physical embodiment - the legionary eagle. It also allowed for a greater organisation of specialised skills within the legions - you had professional engineers, logisticians, accountants, medics, and everything else you need to keep an army running. Combine that with the formalisation of training, and the increased tactical flexibility of the cohort-based legion, and you have a more efficient killing machine. They probably should be marginally better than the pre-Marian troops. Discuss it with DVK. He may be open to the possibility of tweaking some of the stats. You have to put up with paying them more because, well, the state DID have to fork out more money for the troops.

[freakkriek]

They probably should be marginally better than the pre-Marian troops. Discuss it with DVK. He may be open to the possibility of tweaking some of the stats. You have to put up with paying them more because, well, the state DID have to fork out more money for the troops.

This is basicly what is was trying to explain thanks ;-)
The end legions=ideal
the pre-marian= in comparison bettter, and that just doesn't make sence

[Jayho75]

The fact that they were professionalised made the legions more efficient for several reasons - you build up an esprit du corps by having permanent units with histories and battle honours to their names, and giving that spirit a physical embodiment - the legionary eagle. It also allowed for a greater organisation of specialised skills within the legions - you had professional engineers, logisticians, accountants, medics, and everything else you need to keep an army running. Combine that with the formalisation of training, and the increased tactical flexibility of the cohort-based legion, and you have a more efficient killing machine. They probably should be marginally better than the pre-Marian troops. Discuss it with DVK. He may be open to the possibility of tweaking some of the stats. You have to put up with paying them more because, well, the state DID have to fork out more money for the troops.

Hear Hear!! i agree.

If you pay more for good standard equipment and constant training... and you pay more for the unit itself... DOES IT MAKE SENSE THAT THE UNIT WILL BE WEAKER THAN THE CHEAPER UNIT WITH LESS TRAINING? F NO.

we are not asking for a 45 defense 20 attack early marian legionary.

we are asking if pre reform legion is 12 attack, post marian has 13 attack. If pre marian has 32 defense, we want 33 defense.

or more moral... or something. They are professional troops now ffs. I don't know about you but when i was young i sucked donkey delight at flipping burgers. But... i trained at it. Before long i was a burger flipping gold chevron legionary cook man guy ... thing.

get me?

[Imperator of Rome]

Hear Hear!! i agree.

If you pay more for good standard equipment and constant training... and you pay more for the unit itself... DOES IT MAKE SENSE THAT THE UNIT WILL BE WEAKER THAN THE CHEAPER UNIT WITH LESS TRAINING? F NO.

we are not asking for a 45 defense 20 attack early marian legionary.

we are asking if pre reform legion is 12 attack, post marian has 13 attack. If pre marian has 32 defense, we want 33 defense.

or more moral... or something. They are professional troops now ffs. I don't know about you but when i was young i sucked donkey delight at flipping burgers. But... i trained at it. Before long i was a burger flipping gold chevron legionary cook man guy ... thing.

get me?

Well, they are not trained when you recruit them, so nope, they should have similar stats to Polybian infantry(Hell, they even have similar equipment[Lorica Hamata, Montefortino, Scutum, with the only difference being a double belt]). Also, bolded message was epic.

[Hanti]

Well, they are not trained when you recruit them, so nope, they should have similar stats to Polybian infantry(Hell, they even have similar equipment[Lorica Hamata, Montefortino, Scutum, with the only difference being a double belt]). Also, bolded message was epic.

According to history, what Gaius Marius actually did, was making available fielding MORE legions with new recruits (poor beggars instead farmers).
This should be simulated by:
1. MUCH higher recruitment cost (state provided equipment)
2. LOWER upkeep cost (more legions fielded because of vast manpower)
3. similar fighting abilities

If post-Marian legions have similar stats to pre-Marian and higher costs, there is no need to actually build palace in Akragas for the players.

PS: I know that in fact (in reality) upkeep of post-Marian legions was higher than pre-Marian, but IN GAME MECHANICS, there should be some bonus for doing reforms. And in RTW engine there's difficult to simulate this process. As someone said, it would be very obvious with MTW2 unit pools.

Another idea is to make Polybian cohors 2 turn recruited units, and post-Marian 1 turn

[rory o'kane]

We don't have room for the Hastati/Principes divided. People complain the pre-Marian troops are too weak as it is. I think we've got the balance just right. I'm really not bothered that my troops are no longer as cost efficient as they were. I think their morale is better anyway. I go through the reforms because I try to play historically, and know that by the time my empire looks like the Roman Republic did in roughly 100BC (as per this map: http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/emp...t/100bc-2.html), the reforms should occur. I also know that the Imperial reforms of Augustus (simulated by building Curiae Hostiliae in as many places as possible at the same time) should occur when the Empire looks as it did in 27 BC. I'm not too bothered about the extra denarii spent on my legions, as long as I play with a certain degree of historicity.

[freakkriek]

We don't have room for the Hastati/Principes divided. People complain the pre-Marian troops are too weak as it is. I think we've got the balance just right. I'm really not bothered that my troops are no longer as cost efficient as they were. I think their morale is better anyway. I go through the reforms because I try to play historically, and know that by the time my empire looks like the Roman Republic did in roughly 100BC (as per this map: http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/emp...t/100bc-2.html), the reforms should occur. I also know that the Imperial reforms of Augustus (simulated by building Curiae Hostiliae in as many places as possible at the same time) should occur when the Empire looks as it did in 27 BC. I'm not too bothered about the extra denarii spent on my legions, as long as I play with a certain degree of historicity.

ha really?? damn... and really the pre-Marian troops are too weak?.. well i don't know about that. But i am a one turn-FGE player so maybe when playing 0-turn the fact that barbarian factions can spawn pretty quick very good heavy infantry has something to do with that.
But you have to admit that in the start of your campaign there are very little units your enemies can bring in the field that wouldn't lose one on one with your cohorts.
And yes i usually try to be as historical as possible but now i'm trying new variaties in wuch i try to give traditionally 'weaker factions the ability to grow =)

[rory o'kane]

I expand historically in terms of the province order. I don't stick to dates because that is not practical with the way RTW works. I just try and do things in the right order and not rush.