Omniscient God vs Freewill

**DarkKnight** · April 06, 2006, 12:36 AM

Throughout many of the religious topics the debate always erupts over the presence of an omniscient God and humans having freewill. Are omniscience and freewill mutually exclusive, or can they coexist?

Lets start from the omniscient God. As a result of his omniscience he knows everything. Included in everything is what decisions we will ultimately make. Therefore God knows what decision we will make before the event occurs. Let me repeat for clarity. God has determined what choice we will make prior to making the choice. The definition of freewill according to Webster's Dictionary is, "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention". Because our choices are already determined by prior causes, we do not have freewill.

Some argue that even though the events are determined, we still make the choice ourselves. Allow me to pose a question? Could you really choose anything you wanted? No. The only option that you actually have to choose is the one that God has foreseen. It is merely an illusion. If you had the freedom to choose any other choice then it would contradict God's omnipotence. Thus freewill is mutually exclusive from an omniscient God.

Now lets start from freewill. Having freewill means that we, ourselves, would make the decision. But who are we? How do we make the decision? Everything that is "us", has been created by God. God created our physical appearance, our ability to think, speak, listen and see, and everything else that is relevant to our existance, as God created us. Therefore God created our thought process. Any event that shapes our thought process can be traced back to God. The arguement that the Devil influences our thoughts doesn't necessarily work. The Devil had to be created by God. God is omniscient. God knew Satan would revolt and corrupt man. God created man with this knowlege. Therefore God is responsible for Satan's influences. All of our thoughts are created and influenced by God. Therefore we are not really acting on our own accord because the omnipotent God is the one who controls our freewill.

**Tostig** · April 06, 2006, 01:37 AM

Not to mention Hume's idea that free will is incompatible with indeterminism since it would mean that our actions don't have to follow on from our intentions, and so no-one could be help responsible for anything.

**leeho730** · April 06, 2006, 02:14 AM

Please remember... Even though religions argue that God (or Gods) is omnipotent, Bible, Quran portray God (or Allah) merely as a being with some immense power. It's more like "God + Universe" rather than "God > Universe" or even "God = Universe."

God (or Gods) in mainstream religions is more like a scientist watching a bunch of guinea pigs in the lab...

**carl-the-conqueror** · April 06, 2006, 10:05 AM

what ever is out there it/they really screwed up wen he invented us lol

**Zenith Darksea** · April 06, 2006, 10:07 AM

Check out the Eastern Orthodox theology - you'll see that they do coexist. It's just that the West is obsessed with absolutism, and neither Protestants nor Catholics think to look to their Eastern comrades.

**Leoreth** · April 06, 2006, 10:53 AM

Although you said "God" in general, lets talk about christianity (only because I don't know enough about other religions).
Just take a look into the first sentences of the bible in the Genesis. When God creates humans at the sixth day, it is said that they were an "image of God" (sorry if the words don't match, I only know the German text). Most theologists are agreed that this doesn't mean that humans look like God (and vis versa), but that they share certain characteristics, especially those which make humans different from animals.
I'm convinced that only this passage already says that God wanted humans to have a free will (because he himself obviously has, how else should he have made the decision to create the universe?) and "rule over the world" (this quote shows that God doens't want to rule over the world himself, but wouldn't he do that if he "controls" the will of the humans?).

According to my interpretation, only at that passage the bible gives enough reasons for a free will. This is only interpretation, of course, but I think that is what the bible wants to point out. What we rather should doubt, is that omniscience thing ... I've never read the whole bible, but still I know many central passages. I've never seen any clue for that so far - could someone verify, please? (based on the bible as the only reference of course, no papal edict etc.)

Btw, even without religion you could doubt the free will. Just ask some psychoanalysts/anthropologists. But I think thats another question.

Disclaimer: I'm Lutheran and not very religious myself, so I'm sure about the existance of a free will. Still, this discussion is very interesting.

**DarkKnight** · April 06, 2006, 06:09 PM

What we rather should doubt, is that omniscience thing ... I've never read the whole bible, but still I know many central passages. I've never seen any clue for that so far - could someone verify, please? (based on the bible as the only reference of course, no papal edict etc.)

"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Acts 15:18
"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for Yahueh searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever." 1 Chr. 28:9
"For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things." I John 3:20
Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God." John 16:30
"The third time he said to him, 'Simon son of John, do you love me?' Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, 'Do you love me?'He said, 'Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.'" John 21:17

Disclaimer: I'm Lutheran and not very religious myself, so I'm sure about the existance of a free will. Still, this discussion is very interesting.

I used to be too. But now I am an Atheist.

**David Deas** · April 06, 2006, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dark Knight

"The third time he said to him, 'Simon son of John, do you love me?' Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, 'Do you love me?'He said, 'Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.'" John 21:17

An excellent example of how a lack of context or background information on the part of the reader may lead some Christians to believe that Jesus and Yahweh were the same individual.