Provincial Upgrades

[Magicman2051]

First off this roads idea doesn't directly fit into a "will increase tax revenue" bracket, I see it as the basic building block required for a lot of other things to work. I'll be using Aetius's map as a basis for this, if this is seen as a good idea I'll also be posting a complete table of every region with the tax income available from each one.

Roads:

1. Viae terrenae (dirt road/basic) - 250+25(modifier) Denarii to construct, Upkeep of 25 DPT.
2. Viae glareae (gravel road/simple) - 500+50(modifier) Denarii to construct, Upkeep of 50 DPT.
3. Viae publicae (paved road/standard) - 750+75(modifier) Denarii to construct, Upkeep of 75 DPT.
4. Viae militares (highway/advanced) - 1,000+100(modifier) Denarii to Construct, Upkeep of 100 DPT.

All of these figures are preliminary and subject to revision. At present values for us to maintain advanced roads in every controlled region would be a total expenditure of 6,200.

The income generated by roads is determined by what region the road is in based on the P/A/R scale and what regions with roads surround it. This will not apply to regions seperated by bodies of water nor will it apply to regions with roads that Rome does not currently control. The "connected to it" is determined by the map, not by where history says roads were, if it does share a border with the intended region then you don't get the bonus.

1. Viae terrenae (dirt road/basic) - 5/10/15 DPT, Generates 5 DPT for each region with level 1 roads connected to it.
2. Viae glareae (gravel road/simple) - 10/20/30 DPT, Generates 10 DPT for each region with level 2 roads connected to it.
3. Viae publicae (paved road/standard) - 15/30/45 DPT, Generates 15 DPT for each region with level 3 roads connected to it.
4. Viae militares (highway/advanced) - 20/40/60 DPT, Generates 20 DPT for each region with level 4 roads connected to it.

In order to generate their full extra income the regions connected must have similar roads, for instance lets look at Sicilia as a simple example.

Region - Wealth - Road level - DPT from roads - Total DPT for region
I - R - 3 - 55 - 1305
II - R - 2 - 40 - 1290

Despite having a level 3 road in I, II only has a level 2, thus I only gets a level 2 bonus and II only receives a level 2 bonus.

I'm sure at this point most of you are either already responding, based on the esteemed principles of tl;dr, or wondering what this could mean for income when fully developed, so lets look at a region shall we? For the sake of argument we'll for somewhere that will generate a LOT of extra income with roads, that Rome currently controls. Macedonia.

Region - Wealth - Road level - DPT from roads - total DPT for region (wealth+roads)
I - R - 4 - 140 - 1390
II - A - 4 - 120 - 645
III - A - 4 - 120 - 645
IV - A - 4 - 120 - 645
V - A - 4 - 120 - 645

As you can see, as long as everywhere in that region is developed as one, all the roads within it pay for itself, barely. Which is the intention, roads aren't meant to be some sort of gamebreaking income generator and I think they'll work best if instead of generating a great deal of income by themselves they generate extra income for other public buildings and investments etc.

You may also be thinking "by comparison to their basic income the roads add a great deal to poor regions and very little extra to rich regions" and you're right. It only makes sense that the rich regions are rich because they already have some sort of complex road and trade system, the game just doesn't recognise it yet, I'm trying to maintain some sort of balance with what should be rich and what shouldn't without negating the effectiveness of roads.

You might also be thinking "but some of regions ave like seven regions connecting to it! Won't that be overpowered!", yes a bit but they generate so much extra income because they're so central.

Road building itself is a two turn process, per every level of road. So to upgrade a single region from no roads to Viae militares will take 8 turns, assuming the spending bill passes each turn. Based on my idea that roads will add a certain amount of income to various other investments I also think it is fair enough to assume that private individuals can, if they want, commission the roads themselves to benefit an investment they make or to generate populist points, but then they have to eat the Upkeep without reaping the direct benefits to income.

Roads can only be constructed in regions that Rome controls, the region also must have been controlled by Rome for at least one full turn before Surveying can occur (I'll get to that in a second).

Surveying - Before any road can be build a dice roll needs to be made, and money needs to be spent. You, the individual wishing to propose a road be built, need to survey the area the turn beforehand, this will cost 1000 per region surveyed. I'm thinking for other buildings a similar policy should be enacted, only the person who paid for the Survey can propose a bill for the construction of roads in that region and no region can be Surveyed twice in one turn or on the turn immediately following the Surveying. What this effectively means is that you can obstruct the construction of roads, or any other building which might use this mechanic, in a region for a turn. Obviously some sort of counter balance will need to be set up, spy's etc., and I think the senate should also be able to change how much each region costs to Survey. That is if this mechanic gets accepted.

This is where the dice roll modifier, as mentioned in the cost, comes into it. A single diceroll can serve multiple regions and in that case the "number of regions" statistic is determined by how many of those regions included in the roll have roads, which means you can make the cost far more attractive to the senate by investing a great deal in Surveying. For that to affect the cost all of the regions you intend to survey must be included in the bill, and you may not use regions with level 4 roads. Rolls can also be done separately.

Availability of materials (d20) - Number of regions with roads connected to it

So lets say that I want to construct four level 1 roads in Italia, this of course assumes that we haven't given certain regions pre-existing roads from the get go, in the regions I/II/V/VI. Given that nowhere has any roads at this point the senate has to eat the full modified cost of 750 per region.

You can propose the bill in the same turn you survey if you wish, that is entirely up to you, but you still can't survey that same area for more advanced roads the next turn.

What do you think? Did I miss anything? Have any question?

[Pontifex Maximus]

Thanks for this suggestions, just a few questions:

1. Is the upkeep for roads more than the money that can be made from them? Or am I reading it wrong?

2. 8 turns would equate to 8 terms, which is over two months, that seems an awful long time to build things, especially if it is drawing money from the budget each turn. I wouldn't consider this as big of a problem if it could be automated or done easily, but at this point it seems someone is going to have to keep track of this term by term for eight terms....that's a lot to ask of someone.

Its a good proposal but it needs a mechanism to make calculating it simpler. Whether or no a spreadhsheet can do it or not is beyond me. Unfortunately I am retarded with technology and numbers, which means I have zero skill in helping this come to fruition. I would, however, have absolutely no misgivings about implementing the system if a spreadsheet type thing could be used by players to keep track of things. If that can happen I have plenty of suggestions regarding what types of provincial upgrades/buildings/public works can be used.

[Magicman2051]

1. In most cases, yes. As I understand it roads were built because they were necessary, and maintained for the same reason, the profit was tangential to the value of just having the roads. I was basically seeing the roads feature, while I was writing it up, as the basis for a larger spending feature. So that roads complement other things the Senate can invest in, which produce more income and balance off the roads. But the numbers can be changed if you want, I'm not pushed.

EDIT: Something I forgot to mention, if I'm right (and I've checked this with my own math but forgot to post it or save it) the total income drain with everywhere sporting level 4 roads is less than 3,000 a turn. Which I think is very reasonable.

I actually intended to put in a clause whereby a person could take a certain amount of the roads upkeep from the senate, thus lightening to load and making themselves look "heroic"(as well as eating up some of that massive player cash base which will accumulate in time), or that the Senate could choose not to maintain the road for a turn or two.

That last option would probably include a function whereby if the road was unmaintained for too long it would regress. Again in that situation a person could step in and maintain the road etc.

2. That is kind of the point I was going for, this way it becomes something that an individual can be associated with. "Oh hey, yeah, Ponti can get roads sorted." etc. and it becomes a valid issue in the Senate for why a person isn't doing their job properly. But again, that can be changed.

That shouldn't be impossible but I'd need to make sure before saying ye or nay.

[Magicman2051]

Any more thoughts on this?

By the way I tried to do up a spread sheet, but it would require an if/then function and that isn't something I can do (or excel can do I think), give me a while to develop another system which should be easy enough to understand. I have a few ideas for that, and it should allow us to track other buildings in the region etc.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Give me a day, the weekend will mean more free time for me

[Magicman2051]

No problem, of course the next big step is to add ports

[ulti]

Any more thoughts on this?

By the way I tried to do up a spread sheet, but it would require an if/then function and that isn't something I can do (or excel can do I think), give me a while to develop another system which should be easy enough to understand. I have a few ideas for that, and it should allow us to track other buildings in the region etc.

I can do the spreadsheet, if/then functions are possible just tricky to get right.

[Magicman2051]

I can do the spreadsheet, if/then functions are possible just tricky to get right.

That would be glorious, so everyone can track it I intend to do a simple break down, or as simple as I can, of all the regions and then keep that updated in an easily viewable space.

[ulti]

Great. Now I just need to understand the damn thing

Though seriously, if you told me your plans for your spreadsheet it would help greatly (like what you were separating stuff into etc...)

[Magicman2051]

I can barely remember how I tried it

I just tracked all the individual incomes, basic without any furnishings, then grouped them all based on Region, then what they were connecting too, and attempted to have to two different equations handling total income and adjusted road bonus from other regions feeding into one list.

[ulti]

What is the modifier for the construction price of roads? Can you explain it a bit simpler.

I'm just going to try the roads system first, see if I can figure it out.

[Magicman2051]

Basically the modifier is just a d20 roll, the number of which is reduced by the amount of regions either connected to the region rolled on or the amount of regions included in the roll that have roads.

So for instance, if eight regions in Italia had level 2 roads and I wanted to upgrade all of those regions with a single roll then the modifier would be thus.

d20 - 8

If the roll was anything less than 8 then all I'd have to pay is 750 basic cost per upgraded road. However if the roll was something like 14 then.

14 - 8 = 6

Therefore

750+75(6) = 1200

That is 1200 per road, so 1200 x 8 = 9600 for all the roads I want to build.

Whereas if I wanted to build a road in one region, and that region had three roads connected to it, then the roll would be.

d20 - 3

Get where I'm coming from?

The intent of this dice roll is various, to add an element of realism to it as labour costs and material availability would naturally fluctuate anyway, as well as the fact that someone who gets a "lucky" roll could very well have an easier time getting the Senate to pay for their income, whereas a person with a very "unlucky" roll might just abandon their project altogether.

The "you can't Survey a region a turn after it was Surveyed" is basically to keep people from feeling that Surveying is something they can just do, whenever. You need to consider it, and use it wisely etc.

Again all feeding back to, debates in the Senate.

[ulti]

Pretty please can we get rid of that, simply because it is way too annoying to have to put that it.

[Magicman2051]

Well I don't mind, but it is a moderator roll, not something you need to factor into the spreadsheet.

[ulti]

Well it affects cost, so I would have to add another variable into it.

First version is attached, just check that I'm calculating everything right... (it's the one called 'Roads Calc'

[Magicman2051]

Well the Roads are only going to be affecting senate income, unless people decide otherwise themselves. As well as that the construction cost will be determined again, by a roll, after that how much they cost to construct shouldn't need to be tracked.

Give me a while to check that out, watching the DotA 2 Semi

[Pontifex Maximus]

I still would like to see this move forward...

[Okmin]

I like it... has the math thing been resolved?

[Pontifex Maximus]

really nothing has been resolved unfortunately, only that we have a basic plan and no specifics

[Aetius]

Ok I have been reviewing Magicman's province upgrades and they have a good basis but I would caution against complexity for everything (he seems to realize this when with the "tl;dr" comment). Here is my version on upgrades, take it or leave it eh;

Roads

Roads that concern the Senate are important military lines not for profit. The public roads are to be reflected in general provincial development below. These roads are inevitably used by people too, its just that they are so epic that they are not really profitable.

Surveying is still in; its the dice roll element:


Viae militares - costs 2000 + (d6)*200; upkeep 200 per year, -12 hours for armies

General Provincial Development
As for everything else, most things are mundane and are really too detailed to specify as individual buildings (aqueducts, public roads, sewers, police, local law courts, and the numerous benefits of romanization).

Spend 300% of province current income, and it gains an extra +50% from its previous value of income.

This can be done once a turn on any province, up to three levels. All our provinces are undeveloped atm. Eventually this could potentially triple the income of the republic, which is ok because more tax income would be helpful in creating more of everything.

Index

Level poor average rich Undeveloped 100 400 2000 Level 1 150 600 3000 Level 2 225 900 4500 Level 3 338 1350 6750

Upgrading a poor undeveloped province to level 1 would cost 300% of its income, so 300.
Upgrading a poor level 1 province to level 2 would cost 300% of its income, so 450.
Upgrading a poor level 2 province to level 3 would cost 300% of its income, so 675.

Upgrading an average undeveloped province to level 1 would cost 300% of its income, so 1200.
Upgrading an average level 1 province to level 2 would cost 300% of its income, so 1800.
Upgrading an average level 2 province to level 3 would cost 300% of its income, so 2700.

Upgrading a rich undeveloped province to level 1 would cost 300% of its income, so 6000.
Upgrading a rich level 1 province to level 2 would cost 300% of its income, so 9000.
Upgrading a rich level 2 province to level 3 would cost 300% of its income, so 13500.

Special Buildings

These are special buildings which the Senate or wealthy individuals can commision; Romans commonly did such things. You (or your partners if you have them) make up whatever you want it to be called, you may choose if you want patrician points or populare points from them, if multiple people fund it then they split the points roughly. They also increase income minorly, not an investment by any means, but a donation to the people...or a kickback to your rich cronies.

10,000 - small building (a little temple, a market, a plaza, etc) generates 200 denarii a turn +1 patrician/populare points
20,000 - moderate building (port development, small forum, etc) generates 600 denarii a turn +2 patrician/populare points
50,000 - grand building (COlumn, Statue, Bath, Forum, etc) +50% base generates 2000 denarii a turn +5 patrician/populare points
75,000 - 2 turns - huge building (Coliseum, Pantheon, Trajan's Forum, etc) 4000 a turn +10 patrician/populare points

I could throw up a quick excel sheet with all the provinces and then rows with roads/province level/special buildings for quaestor use. W/e you want really.