Dark Elves and High Elves

[Ultra123]

Hello all im thinking about yet another campaign with the dark elves a bit later, just wan a bit of a heads up.

i have played extensively with HE in COW and know a fair bit about them in lore (im talking units and stats) but although i know backrounds to DE i am a bit at a loss about unit stats. is their ranged attack as powerful as HE? do you have the equivalents of lothlorien seaguards? or is it as i suspect a more melee orientated faction without much ranged awesomeness? the AI of course doesnt build its armys well and i knocked the DE out very early in my HE campaign, so didnt see too much of army composition.

-will be using the DE enhanced mod as well...

any discussion to answer my question/lore/anything to do with the DE and HE factions in game is very welcome.

[Elitewolf]

I played with the dark elf enhanced mod as well, only the first 20 turns or so, but it was fun. They're stronger in melee, have more defense skill but less armor, and their crossbows are very good, the rate of fire is higher then empire archers.

You're going to be in trouble with the mod, since it gives you one large army including an incredibly expensive hydra at the start, making you go in the red very fast.

[Vasterion]

Dark elves are much more melee oriented than the high elves, but they are a fairly fragile army, with certain units providing a rock hard damage dealing base while the others provide fast support.

Cold one cavalry, executioners and the guard provide your central battle line similar to how dragon princes, white lions, swordmasters and phoenix guard provide for high elves.

Other units are cheap fodder compared to them, but they rely on mobility and high damage to win out against tougher foes. There is a rough equivalent to lothern seaguard in lore - they are called corsairs. In gameplay they are melee units, although in the tabletop game they have option for a couple of handbows, providing massed shortrange firepower. In CoW however, no there isn't really an equivalent. However, for the most part, the same tactics work, as dark elven crossbows are deadly, if shorter ranged, due to their very high rate of fire.

[Ultra123]

elitewolf when did you see that hydra, have the mod installed i can see loading screens, traits and anciillarys clearly from the mod. but im not seeing any hydra at all and im only on like turn 5 i think.

thanks for the advice vasterion. i love ranged fights and having the ranged superiority, so i think ill be massing xbows when i can.

[mckain666]

elitewolf when did you see that hydra, have the mod installed i can see loading screens, traits and anciillarys clearly from the mod. but im not seeing any hydra at all and im only on like turn 5 i think.

thanks for the advice vasterion. i love ranged fights and having the ranged superiority, so i think ill be massing xbows when i can.

the hydra is in an updated DE-mod think it was patched in

[Elitewolf]

elitewolf when did you see that hydra, have the mod installed i can see loading screens, traits and anciillarys clearly from the mod. but im not seeing any hydra at all and im only on like turn 5 i think.

thanks for the advice vasterion. i love ranged fights and having the ranged superiority, so i think ill be massing xbows when i can.

If you have the Dark Elves Enhanved mod they're supposed to be in an army near the Dark Elves camp, with Malus Darkblade. It's one unit of them.

[Iguanaonastick]

I've only done some custom battle testing with these and without mods, but I did notice that the Dark Elf repeater bolt-thrower actually is a repeater weapon. It shoots an entire volley of bolts killing many foes at once. (but is slow to reload.) In my tests the Elven eagle's claw seemed to act like just a normal ballista.

[Ultra123]

mckain, the hydra is supposed to be from the sub-mod for dark elves http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=454551
shown there by TWmadman, i didnt mean the COW mod installed, i meant i had the COW mod AND the dark elves enhanced sub-mod.

-does anyone know if i can increase the range on those xbows? if so how and will it take place in a saved game or do i have to restart campaign.... ty all.

also discussions - opinions, do you think DE is better to play as in COW or HE? if so why/why not.

[Ultra123]

well thats odd, i simply dont have it elite, theres no question that the mod is installed i know it is installed, i mean load screens traits descriptions etc evrything but that army is not there lol --> perhaps a different version?

[Elitewolf]

well thats odd, i simply dont have it elite, theres no question that the mod is installed i know it is installed, i mean load screens traits descriptions etc evrything but that army is there lol --> perhaps a different version?

Could be, or you didn't replace the descr_strat file in the world>campaign folder.

Do you have Malus Darkblade?

[Ultra123]

no i dont elite

and LOL a elven alliance mess, i took marienburg as high elves, and fessburg the settlement next to it, only to have middenheim go t war with me breaking its alliance with the rest fo the empire!

i smell a ROFLstomp coming up, im guna annex the whole faction and gift the settlements to wissenland woosies... this is guna be fun

- so much for elves being the treachorous ones, watch out for middenland!

[Ultra123]

im finding anther combo for elven armys quite interesting - a army of 4 reavers, 1 pheonix guard and 2 mounted generals, rest seaguard, demolishes most enemy armys, just took out 2 chaos armys and one orc army with the same combo ...... very fun to see enemy decimated before he reaches you, the reaves move to the back of army(kills any arty and shamans or mages) then charges into the melee when all enemy units engaged and has no ammo...

[Vasterion]

Horse archers are generally instawin in mw2. When they're as accurate, long ranged, fast moving, high damaging, and as decent in melee as reavers, it takes stuff like nurgle knights and daemons to withstand.

[Ultra123]

indeed vasterion, but thankfully imnot building my armys like i did the persians in RTW or the timurids in med2, a full HA army in those games, and probably in COW decimates anything and wins the entire map. i used to build only HA and defends with melee units. very easy wins, i lost more men to own casualtys then to the enemy.

[Vasterion]

I have a few issues with self shooting early on, but by gold chevron and good micro you will suffer only a couple of deaths. If you're struggling to get gold chevron, have then off ranged, and have them hunt down fleeing enemies, they;re the fastest unit sans daemonette cavalry iirc and it only takes like 50 captured to 1 bar.

[Mikail Mengsk]

Archerspam is not a "combo". It's a no-brain tactic.

[Ultra123]

lol mikail why on earth would you build a HE army without a heavy support of lothlorien seaguard? your battles must be very dull as HE if u roll a militia heavy army, a army of pheonix guard is not viable in a campaign where your not using money cheats. HE economy is hard enough as it is without putting such petty constraints.

[Mikail Mengsk]

4 reavers, 1 pheonix guard and 2 mounted generals, rest seaguard

This is not "heavy support of lothlorien seaguard".

This is archerspamming, that makes useless playing at VH, because it's almost instawin against most enemy armies. No real skill involved, you said it yourself:

very fun to see enemy decimated before he reaches you

You can find it funny, but it's not a real tactic, nor a real combo. You can make good HE armies without having 13 archers, and still win and don't ruin your economy. Of course you won't just have to watch your enemies almost wiped out before even reaching you...

[Ultra123]

interesting, but what would you play with as he then?

-spearmen is not very good, they die super quick
-phoenix guard, with a 4 turn recruit cost, and being your other only real front line troops, would decimate our economy until the much later campaign, perhaps even after the chaos invasion.
-you cannot take on 2+ stacks of enemy in campaign with spearmen and somtimes you have no choice ala orcs, or the storm of chaos event, if your mainly stacking spearmen as your front line troops. your army will be decimated if u survive, forcing you to retrain, probably taking many turns, by that time most of averland would be wiped by the orcs, unless u have multiple stacks.

i can understand in custom battle since you can create good main line troops. but yes there is some skill involved, ie getting your horses around the enemy, wiped arty without losing evrything, and supporting the guard who are under the heaviest attack... moving your spearguard who have managed to escape melee to get behind the enemy and shoot them up... altough of course it wouldnt require AS much skill as a spearmen-on-the-front army.

im guesing your one of those people who makes things harder for themselves? ala 4 units of spearmen fron 4 spearguard in second line 4 archer militia in 3rd, and rest elite? .... well each to their own. i did use this tact before, until i found my way more fun and resource friendly.

and also as fa as i can see, HE are the best archers in the game, why not use the ranged advantage when your up against 20+ stacks of chaos and 15 stacks of orks at a time, and can only afford 2 decent stacks at a time.

- also fun factor kicks in for me too, i feel 'why should i spend 50 turns MOSTLY retraining, when i can spend 50 turns MOSTLY fighting the enemy.' its annoying for me to fight with all my units under 40% strength.
- plus, its not multiplayer on campaign your on your own, so theres no real reason to show off.. not like in a mmo for example... in this mod you survive how you can, the clearly as HE the most resourceful way to survive is to build a army based on the ranged factor, which is clearly this factions selling point for me.

- i can understand it would be rather stupid to for example as empire stack 10 units of empire archers, as that faction is not based around the archer but around arty and foot troops, then i would concede 'archer spamming'

- 'No real skill involved, you said it yourself:' Quote me.

[Mikail Mengsk]

interesting, but what would you play with as he then?

-spearmen is not very good, they die super quick
-phoenix guard, with a 4 turn recruit cost, and being your other only real front line troops, would decimate our economy until the much later campaign, perhaps even after the chaos invasion.
-you cannot take on 2+ stacks of enemy in campaign with spearmen and somtimes you have no choice ala orcs, or the storm of chaos event, if your mainly stacking spearmen as your front line troops. your army will be decimated if u survive, forcing you to retrain, probably taking many turns, by that time most of averland would be wiped by the orcs, unless u have multiple stacks.

i can understand in custom battle since you can create good main line troops. but yes there is some skill involved, ie getting your horses around the enemy, wiped arty without losing evrything, and supporting the guard who are under the heaviest attack... moving your spearguard who have managed to escape melee to get behind the enemy and shoot them up... altough of course it wouldnt require AS much skill as a spearmen-on-the-front army.

im guesing your one of those people who makes things harder for themselves? ala 4 units of spearmen fron 4 spearguard in second line 4 archer militia in 3rd, and rest elite? .... well each to their own. i did use this tact before, until i found my way more fun and resource friendly.

and also as fa as i can see, HE are the best archers in the game, why not use the ranged advantage when your up against 20+ stacks of chaos and 15 stacks of orks at a time, and can only afford 2 decent stacks at a time.

I won't say your method is wrong, nor that is unfunny for everyone. And of course IS resource friendly, because it's the most effective way of fighting for a strong archery faction.

BUT

You have to admit that this way it's almost pointless to play at VH, because this tactic is already so much effective that in fact lowers every battle's difficulty. Of course one could make it in a particularily desperate situation, but making it one's primary tactic takes off much of the game's difficulty.

- also fun factor kicks in for me too, i feel 'why should i spend 50 turns MOSTLY retraining, when i can spend 50 turns MOSTLY fighting the enemy.' its annoying for me to fight with all my units under 40% strength.

I won't question this too. Everyone is free to play as he likes to. Retraining in order to replace losses, however, it's part of the strategy and the game. Pulling veterans back to your lines to retrain them is a "difficulty factor".

- plus, its not multiplayer on campaign your on your own, so theres no real reason to show off.. not like in a mmo for example... in this mod you survive how you can, the clearly as HE the most resourceful way to survive is to build a army based on the ranged factor, which is clearly this factions selling point for me.

You are right, but again there is a difference from an heavy archery-based army and an archerspam. 13 heavy archers are definitely archerspamming. You can have a STRONG archer-based army with 7-8 lothern seaguards. 13 is overkill.

- i can understand it would be rather stupid to for example as empire stack 10 units of empire archers, as that faction is not based around the archer but around arty and foot troops, then i would concede 'archer spamming'

It would be spamming too, altough less effective than HE archerspam. In fact, HE's archerspam is "worse" than any other's archerspamming, because their archers are more powerful. I would say the same for (for example) a Kislevite all-cavalry army: the AI can't stand against an all-cavalry army. Archerspamming is "worse" because archers are usually much cheaper than cavalry.

- 'No real skill involved, you said it yourself:' Quote me.

Heh, i did:

very fun to see enemy decimated before he reaches you

If the enemy is decimated before even reaching you, battles becomes quite easy, don't they? Sure, you have to outflank the enemy with your 4 cavalry (not so hard because of AI's usual behavior), take its artillery (if it has them), and then charge the enemy in the back when it reach your main line. But the real work is carried out by the archers, that basically wins the battle alone.

Compared to the tactics and the consequences of a "normal" tactic, archerspamming is easy to do.

I repeat: this is not plain "wrong" because you, as you said, are not in a multiplayer and you have the right to play as you like to. But i think it's a pretty cheap tactic and not a real "combo" because it significantly lowers the game difficulty.

No need to throw veiled insults.

I don't want to insult anyone, i apologize if Ultra feels insulted, i didn't intend to. I'm strongly against "-spam" tactics, yes, in every m2tw mod.