archers vs units defending castle courtyard

**Jepp** · August 30, 2011, 02:52 AM

Hello,

Everytime the enemy reinforces the castle or city courtyard/market at the end of a siege... But they just stay there (move a little) and get killed by my archers... Why dont they counterattack... its their only move they have...

Oh i had a unit of heavy fountain guards in front of my archers to protect them... (maybe thats the cause?) but in that case they just should flank them on any way possible...

I hope someone knows a fix for this problem

Thanks

**KnightsTemplar** · August 30, 2011, 03:43 AM

Pathfinding and AI sucks, you know.
They seldom know 'flank' and 'archer supressive fire'.
The tend to wait for your melee troops to come rather than counterattack, if the former presents.

**Jepp** · August 30, 2011, 08:20 AM

And what AI comes close to human AI?

Thanks

**AJenny58** · August 30, 2011, 11:56 AM

They just want to defend the city square, but are too dumb to realize that doing so just makes them easy pickings for arrow fire. If you wait for them to sally out the reinforcements will attack, but if you really enjoy an offensive siege battle you're kind of out of luck as far as smart enemy reinforcements goes.

**Jepp** · August 30, 2011, 01:23 PM

So what AI do the people of this forum suggest?

**Muffer Nl** · August 30, 2011, 03:28 PM

The AI used in this mod is already the best AI available for M2TW but there is a limit to the amount of scripting that can be done.

**The Mouth** · August 30, 2011, 03:47 PM

The funny thing is that in the AIs stupidity it actually makes taking the square somewhat of a challenge since if you don't make your units move behind the enemies cluster they just slowly walk in to fight them and are killed one by one so it's and extremely frustrating challenge that is solved by archers most of the time.

**alreadyded** · August 30, 2011, 04:19 PM

The AI is scripted to fall back and hold the town center after you capture one of their gates or knock down a wall. Personally, I avoid settlement battles whenever possible, but when I do fight them I just attack the walls using ladders and towers. If you do this the AI stays and fights with you on the walls and in the streets usually making it more difficult to win. Sometimes the AI falling back to the town center is a good and more challenging thing though, like when they have archers too. Also they don't route when in the center and so are harder to kill in melee. Just try not to take advantage of the AI's stupidity but sitting back and shooting them to death, even though that is exactly what you are supposed to be doing.

**NickTheGreek3** · August 30, 2011, 04:43 PM

Well that's odd. The exact opposite happens when I'm attacking a settlement... When I seriously outnumber the enemy, they usually fall back to the central plaza the very next moment I click on the "Start Battle" button. Also, when I line up my archers near the central plaza, the enemy charges at me as soon as they shoot the first arrow bolt...

**alreadyded** · August 30, 2011, 06:34 PM

If you have siege equipment in your army when you attack they fall back to the center right away, otherwise they would just sit on the walls and get eff'd up. So don't bring siege equipment, just use ladders and towers. If you seriously out number them than it doesn't really matter whether they stay or fall back because they will lose regardless.

**Toshach** · August 30, 2011, 10:34 PM

If you have pinned the AI into his castle courtyard, then he's probably toast anyway. Yes? So does it really make that much of a difference how you finish him off and how he goes to his ultimate demise? Naw. Just use the situation to gain your archers some experience.

**Jepp** · August 31, 2011, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by Toshach

If you have pinned the AI into his castle courtyard, then he's probably toast anyway. Yes? So does it really make that much of a difference how you finish him off and how he goes to his ultimate demise? Naw. Just use the situation to gain your archers some experience.

Thats true, didnt thought of it like that... nice vision

**AJenny58** · August 31, 2011, 01:56 AM

By the way, I always defend the city square when the enemy has siege weapons. It is smarter to defend a maximum of four choke-points (usually one in front, two on the sides, and one in back, but the AI usually takes only the front) than defending against eight or nine breeches in your defenses. I even set up in the city square if the enemy has too much siege equipment, sometimes you just can't hold six breeches well.

Of course this only works if you have a well balanced army with enough archers to cause some serious harm.

**dmcraanen** · August 31, 2011, 02:55 AM

Shouldn't be wearing 6 breeches if you can't hold them up (huhuhu sorry I had to be grammar nazi there).

Also, about the defending thing - I usually just dump some REALLY heavy troops on the walls which will usually route the enemy on the walls before they breach the gates. After routing units on the wall they won't use the ladders anymore most of the time so I just march the heavy troops down again to the gate and usually they're there when it breaks or very shortly after. (Especially in TLK this is fun with bersekers.....1/3rd of the army captured for life!)

**AJenny58** · August 31, 2011, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by dmcraanen

Shouldn't be wearing 6 breeches if you can't hold them up (huhuhu sorry I had to be grammar nazi there).

D'Oh! I do appreciate the correction, though. Thanks. I'm usually good about grammar, but spelling has never been my strong suit.

Also, about the defending thing - I usually just dump some REALLY heavy troops on the walls which will usually route the enemy on the walls before they breach the gates. After routing units on the wall they won't use the ladders anymore most of the time so I just march the heavy troops down again to the gate and usually they're there when it breaks or very shortly after. (Especially in TLK this is fun with bersekers.....1/3rd of the army captured for life!)

Sometimes they get smart and send a few units up the ladders, then you're stuck on the walls. Or sometimes I will pull my troops off the wall to assist in defending the gate, and then the enemy sends men up my undefended wall and I become surrounded.

**Vasterion** · September 01, 2011, 09:12 AM

Siege Battles are annoying due to the reasons - AI pathfinding is among the worst in the cities, they just go for the quickest route, even if that route is blocked by 5 Spearmen and supporting Javelins.

As for attacking siege battles, I prefer going for the cinematic approach - often using my artillery to knock out one of the enemy wall sections, then sending all my heavy infantry towards that. It's also an easy way to kill enemy cavalry - despite cavalry relatively rare in the mod and hence less need for Spears (especially in Field Battles), I always find units like Earls, Elven Lancers, Morgul Knights, Serpent Guard, and especially Cataphracts so nasty, that sending in an siege with say 6 Shield/2Handed Sword Infantry, and 6 Spear Infantry is nice combination. 4 Archers with Ladders, 2 Catapults, a General, and an elite Infantry unit (Trolls, Ents, Mithlond Guard, Fountain Court Guard) to back them up.

That usually allows me enough strength to counter a full city of enemies even untrained. There's huge attrition obvously, but it looks epic, and by the time I'm pulling stunts where I can afford to "showboat" with single breach assaults, I can replace such a stack even if lost in 3-4 turns, also means there's less damage done during the siege.