Elvish Factions

**Leonidas480bc** · August 29, 2011, 11:03 AM

I know that it has been discussed about how to correctly (Lore wise) to best represent the Elven factions. From what I have read they were a peaceful race in tune with nature seeking beauty over a war like manner. That is not to say once roused to war they fought meekly, but on the contrary they fought with skill and bravery. With that being said how do we justify their expansionistic behavior in the game?
There are a few rebel settlements near each of the Elven factions starting territories. Using scripts we could have Mordor to launch a small raiding party consisting of 2-3 units at Elvenkings halls in woodland realm province :Mirkwood faction: (if using FROM), Orcs of the misty mountains to launch a small raiding party’s consisting of 2-3 units at Imladris in the trollshaws province :High Elves faction: and Cerin Amroth in Lothlorien province :Lorien or Silvan faction. They would spawn and attack on the first turn. Once defeated a new script would trigger to say that a council meeting of the Elders was convened and it was decided to begin arming themselves for war similar to what is already done.
The council now gives orders to aid the surrounding rebel towns/forts by removing the bandits/orcs and goblins witch infest them. This should allow the player to occupy his original homelands, thus unifying his kingdom ( The Reforging-concept of the Elven Factions) witch would lead to a reduction in elves departure rate. But still we have the question how many Adult elves are there in Middle earth and how many game turns are there? Using those numbers should help us to come up with a recruitment and how mant turns before we can recruit the same unit again.
I think the elves should have to rely on Humans to bolster their forces, witch means they would need to be added to the elven factions roster not as mercenaries but as troops. There would be a minimum northman culture needed to recruit them, witch would make the player decide witch buildings to build. The Elven culture buildings would benefit the elvish population while the taverns would need to be edited to add northman culture in the following manner Vineyard 0%, Inn 1%, Tavern 2%, Coachinghouse 3% and Pleasure palace 4%. So you can’t build both Elven elite and human elite units in the same town. Human units would replenish faster than elven units. I would like to know your thoughts on this.

**TheDarkKnight** · August 29, 2011, 11:08 AM

I'd recommend breaking all this up into smaller paragraphs...Just a tip.

**frostbyte** · August 29, 2011, 11:37 AM

Ive never really felt to strongly about the elven factions, mainly because i feel like they should just be one single race faction like the dwarves. It seems like that in the movies.

**Dustindesrctin** · August 29, 2011, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by frostbyte

Ive never really felt to strongly about the elven factions, mainly because i feel like they should just be one single race faction like the dwarves. It seems like that in the movies.

not at all.

**Ciloron** · August 29, 2011, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Dustindesrctin

not at all.

Ye i agree Lorien is way different then Imladris

**Æsir** · August 29, 2011, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by frostbyte

Ive never really felt to strongly about the elven factions, mainly because i feel like they should just be one single race faction like the dwarves. It seems like that in the movies.

Oh boy, here we go.. You know that there was civil war between Elves?
High Elves were praised by Gods but Silvan Elves were in love with their homeland in spite of Gods..

**Pyres Δt Varanasi** · August 29, 2011, 07:53 PM

Really a Civil War ?

**Æsir** · August 29, 2011, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Oli the Great

Really a Civil War ?

Look for example for Kinslaying at Alqualondë..

**Eos** · September 01, 2011, 12:51 PM

Above is correct, two elven factions from the retrospective of Tolkien accuracy is needed because Silvans basically decided that they were going to get away from all that "High Elves praise gods, live in cities"

Essentially Silvans are farmers living peacefully in villages and High Elves are inner city bankers, fighting with each other and everyone else praising the gods for reasons of self-preservation.

Also Tolkien differentiates between the Kinslaying between the Elves and the Kinslaying between Men.
Same name different meaning. Elven kinslaying was an argument (if a brutal one) between two leaders. neither wanted to destory the other but just to prove their point. Manish Kinslaying was just open civil war, see Castamir/ Cossairs of Umbar and Valacar/ Men of Gondor.

Additionally the Ai would be nerfed by the fact that they'd want to connect up all their territories if you made the Elves one faction. Every single faction that is split into two parts: Mordor, SE, HE, Dwarves spends all their time trying to link their regions up.
Having 4 regions to link up would just be difficult. and the Ai would spend all time trying to do it.

**Pyres Δt Varanasi** · August 29, 2011, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by frostbyte

Ive never really felt to strongly about the elven factions, mainly because i feel like they should just be one single race faction like the dwarves. It seems like that in the movies.

The Silvan Elves and High Elves are independant kingdoms well not kingdoms more like city-states since the elves at the War Of The Ring only have the Grey Heavens[Lindon] which includes the cities of Harlond, Forlond , Mithlond , Elostirion. They also have Imladris (Rivendell) and the Woodland Realms (Mirkwood in the north and Lorien on The South)

**Leonidas480bc** · August 29, 2011, 12:17 PM

The reason for this post is i just successfully added a new unit to my current game and feeling cocky think i might be able to do the above following tutorials. I also want to look into allowing those Factions that have alliances at the start of the game to be able to recruit a few of the allied factions lower tier troops witch will have a three to four times the replenishment penalty as a normal unit would.

**muller227** · August 29, 2011, 05:19 PM

You are on the surface correct about the Elvish numbers, especially the High Elves, literally they should not even exist as a faction (but that would suck). Lorewise though Elves did not rule humans, in fact they refused too despite members of three houses wanting them too. There is a part in the Silmarillion about this. The House of Hador ruled in Dor Lomin, independently and allied to Fingolfin and Fingon, recognizing a sort of hands off high King, while the House of Beor ruled Dorthonion allied to Angrod and Aegnor. Real life ME so to speak, Elves would pull out of any area dominated by humans and let them rule themselves. This is why they don't really fit into classical Total War scenarios.

I see where you are going with this and it makes sense at a certain level especially when it come to balancing Total war, so good luck.

**Pyres Δt Varanasi** · August 29, 2011, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by muller227

You are on the surface correct about the Elvish numbers, especially the High Elves, literally they should not even exist as a faction (but that would suck). Lorewise though Elves did not rule humans, in fact they refused too despite members of three houses wanting them too. There is a part in the Silmarillion about this. The House of Hador ruled in Dor Lomin, independently and allied to Fingolfin and Fingon, recognizing a sort of hands off high King, while the House of Beor ruled Dorthonion allied to Angrod and Aegnor. Real life ME so to speak, Elves would pull out of any area dominated by humans and let them rule themselves. This is why they don't really fit into classical Total War scenarios.

I see where you are going with this and it makes sense at a certain level especially when it come to balancing Total war, so good luck.

Yeah But Third Age without elven factions would suck =[ . Remember that sometimes going tooooo much on Lore may damage the game true purpose is Total War in the end Ur suppose to expand and conquer lands so i say that the elves can stay as they are but at least reduce the unit size if humans have a company of 152 or 122 men elves should have 60 and cavalry like 45 but with better stats than human so ass to balance their lack in numbers and lore-wise elves and dwarfs have the best smiths in Middle-Earth and keep the some addons like the restore kingdoms of Lindor and Doriath ect...

**Everto** · August 29, 2011, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Leonidas480bc

The reason for this post is i just successfully added a new unit to my current game and feeling cocky think i might be able to do the above following tutorials. I also want to look into allowing those Factions that have alliances at the start of the game to be able to recruit a few of the allied factions lower tier troops witch will have a three to four times the replenishment penalty as a normal unit would.

What unit did you add if I may ask?

**Leonidas480bc** · August 29, 2011, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Everto

What unit did you add if I may ask?

koultouras altered the Lorien swordman for me by adding javilins to them. that was the new unit that was added.
Here are their stats:
type Lorien Infantry2
dictionary Lorien_Infantry2 ; new lorien jav
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_missile
banner holy crusade
soldier Afghan_Javelinmen, 48, 0, 1
officer silvan_captain_early_flag
mount_effect elephant +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit, stakes, stakes, start_not_skirmishing
move_speed_mod 1.2
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 3
stat_pri 11, 3, javelin, 65, 4, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, spear, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr ap, thrown
stat_sec 10, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 5, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 1, 0, 2, -1
stat_mental 11, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 15
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 650, 230, 75, 75, 560, 4, 100
armour_ug_levels 1, 2
armour_ug_models lorien_infantry2, lorien_infantry2_upg
ownership lorien, egypt
era 0 lorien, egypt
era 1 lorien, egypt
era 2 lorien, egypt
recruit_priority_offset 5

I also added them and the Lothlorien Ranger's to the High Elves as allies recruit able in Imladris but at four times the replenishment delay. I am not reducing the size of the elvin units but will make them take longer to be replenished. So i think an average elven archer takes 1-2 turns to recruit and train and the next one will be available in 2-3 turns, I want to increase the replenishment rate to 5-6 turns for elven lower tier units and Elites take 7-8 turns before you can recruit another.
As you can see from the above unit i have increased their movement: move_speed_mod 1.2 and range to compensate for the slow javelin throwing animation. I am using FROM 2.5 but would Love to have all the extra choices of MOS.
I do understand there is a need to balance reality and the FUN factor of gaming, but how can an elven faction take over a province that has 4000 northmen in it with 60% northman culture 30%elven and 10% other and if attacked only the elves get to fight all the northmen stay at home...... So for the northmen stats i will use vanilla mercenary stats and units, but will change thier names to suit the region they are from.

**Everto** · August 29, 2011, 06:05 PM

Oh for peats sake...don't reduce the Elven Units even more, if that happens, I'm bloody editing it...gdamn tiny unit as it is anyway

**Pyres Δt Varanasi** · August 29, 2011, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Everto

Oh for peats sake...don't reduce the Elven Units even more, if that happens, I'm bloody editing it...gdamn tiny unit as it is anyway

How small are they now ?

I have Third Age with MOS 6.1 and the elven units are (On HUGE UNIT SIZE) 121 (Spear) , 102 (Shield-bearers) , 102 (Two-handed Elven Swordsmen) 48 (Calvalry) , 73 (Smiths Of Eregion) , 121-122 (All Low Tier Units) , 100 (Mithlond Warriors) , 78 (Noldor Pikemen) and 25 the Noldor Noble and Mithlond Nobles.

And They are Extremely Powerfull with ALOT of Morale -__- XD

**Everto** · August 29, 2011, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Oli the Great

How small are they now ?

I have Third Age with MOS 6.1 and the elven units are (On HUGE UNIT SIZE) 121 (Spear) , 102 (Shield-bearers) , 102 (Two-handed Elven Swordsmen) 48 (Calvalry) , 73 (Smiths Of Eregion) , 121-122 (All Low Tier Units) , 100 (Mithlond Warriors) , 78 (Noldor Pikemen) and 25 the Noldor Noble and Mithlond Nobles.

And They are Extremely Powerfull with ALOT of Morale -__- XD

Yes...as far as I'm concerned, they shouldn't be reduced AT ALL...simply the units are pretty small and, being High Elves, pretty decently balanced game wise.

And actually all of the Eldar Units in the standard version have 121 men per unit, and the Eregion Smiths and Mithlond Warriors have 102...which is how I like it lol

**Pyres Δt Varanasi** · August 29, 2011, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Everto

Yes...as far as I'm concerned, they shouldn't be reduced AT ALL...simply the units are pretty small and, being High Elves, pretty decently balanced game wise.

And actually all of the Eldar Units in the standard version have 121 men per unit, and the Eregion Smiths and Mithlond Warriors have 102...which is how I like it lol

Yeah but they decided to lower then a little =/ , and i think that the Eldar Units and Other elites units like (Guardians of the Moon and Sun and the Noldor Units which are only available with MOS and FROME i think for know i don't know f they may get added to 3.0) will get another reduce to 90 or 80. But that's not 100% sure so im just guessing since many ppl are asking for that.