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Thread: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Roman leadership system in RTR VII
    In this thread we will explain how the Roman leadership system works.

    Enabling and disabling the Roman leadership system
    The Roman leadership system is enabled by default. However, the launcher offers you the option to disable it.

    Overview
    The Roman leadership system in RTR VII is a trait and ancillary feature loosely based on the career path of a Roman soldier/politician. As such, it includes the familiar officies of the "Cursus Honorum". However, as with most features of RTR VII, realism and gameplay are inseparable. The gameplay aim is perhaps best described as "compulsory role-playing". New family members are severely constrained in their ability to lead armies or govern settlements. You will have to guide them through their careers and, as they climb the social ladder, they will gain the authority necessary to be successful.

    In this system, family members receive benefits of rank if they fulfill three general conditions:
    - eligibility for the rank
    - hold an appointment for the rank
    - operate within the remit of the rank

    Ranks and offices
    Benefits from current and past ranks show as traits in the character scroll. The Roman leadership consists the following ranks and offices.

    Cavalry commander
    Eligibility: The rank of Cavalry commander is given to all family members at the end of their first turn.
    Appointment: none
    Remit: This rank is always active.
    Benefits: The rank reflects the fact that any family member commands a bodyguard and can be used as a (small) cavalry unit. He gains battle stats, but carries no authority to lead armies or govern settlements. On the contrary, you are well advised never to leave them in charge of anything!

    Tribunus Militum
    Eligibility: Family members become eligible for the rank 5 years after entering your faction.
    Appointment: An ancillary with the Roman faction icon and the abbreviation "TR."
    Remit: To retain the benefits of rank, the Tribunus Militum must end his turn in a friendly settlement.
    Benefits: The rank confers bonuses to siege defense, and to a lesser degree to command and public order.

    Quaestor
    Eligibility: Family members become eligible for the rank 15 years after entering your faction.
    Appointment: An ancillary with the Roman faction icon and the abbreviation "Q"
    Remit: To retain the benefits of rank, the Quaestor must end his turn in a friendly settlement.
    Benefits: The rank confers bonuses to management, law and public order.

    Aedilis
    Eligibility: Family members become eligible for the rank 5 years after first serving as Quaestor.
    Appointment: An ancillary with the Roman faction icon and the abbreviation "Aed".
    Remit: To retain the benefits of rank, the Aedilis must end his turn in a friendly settlement.
    Benefits: The rank confers bonuses to management, law and public order.

    Praetor
    Eligibility: Family members become eligible for the rank 8 years after first serving as Quaestor.
    Appointment: An ancillary with the Roman faction icon and the abbreviation "Prae".
    Remit: To retain the benefits of rank, the Praetor must end his turn in a friendly territory.
    Benefits: The rank confers bonuses to command, management, law and public order.

    Consul
    Eligibility: Family members become eligible for the rank 3 years after first serving as Praetor.
    Appointment: An ancillary with the Roman faction icon and the abbreviation "COS".
    Remit: Unlimited.
    Benefits: The rank confers bonuses to command management, law and public order.

    If a family member of a given rank loses his appointment, or is acting outside the remit of his appointment, the rank trait is replaced by a former-rank trait. The former ranks do confer a small "experience" bonus. Thus, a family member who has gone through all the ranks will enjoy the cumulative benefits of this experience, on top of any rank they may currently hold.

    Appointments
    The total number and type of appointments available to your faction depends on the number of regions held. With every 10 regions held, the number will increase. Appointments lost due to deaths are returned to the "pool" of available appointments.
    If an appointment is available, an eligible family member can obtain it by residing in the city of ROMA. You need to remove any existing appointments from this family member though. No new appointment "lands" on an FM who already has a command. That's to prevent accidental stacking of commands. Existing appointments can also be transferred from one family member to another.



    Beware: benefits of ranks are only conferred when a single appointment rests on a family member. You can stack appointments on one family member, but he will lose any rank he may have had up to that point.

    Example
    The attached image shows the character scroll of Tiberius Coruncanius.
    As he is eligible for the rank of consul [1.7], holds an appointment to the rank of consul [1.6] and acts within his (unlimited) remit [1.9], he enjoys the benefits of the rank of Consul. The character scroll also shows all ranks held previously [1.2-1.5] and the ever present rank of "Cavalry commander" [1.1].
    By comparison, if he had held the appointment of Praetor, he would have been acting outside his remit (friendly territory) and lose the benefits of rank.



    Good practices for using the Roman Leadership System

    Distributing offices originating in Rome
    New offices are handed out in Rome, to anyone who is eligible for them and is not holding office. Remember, however, that because offices are ancillaries, you can transfer them from one FM to another. You should actively use this feature to distribute your offices.
    Ideally, you put one senior family member in Rome who is eligible for all offices (that is, a former consul). Next, you should have some of these ineligible youths in Rome as well. Then, if a new office is available, it will be assigned to your former consul. You then transfer it to your ineligible youth and use him as a courier to bring it to a FM who is eligible for that office.

    Managing offices once they are in circulation
    Which official is best suited for a particular settlement is generally dictated by its strategic position. You will want your consuls and praetors near the frontiers and your Quaestors and Aediles in militarily safe, but potentially rebellious settlements. Therefore, once an office is at its desired destination, it is best to keep the office where it is and cycle your FM's through them: if someone becomes eligible for Tribune, send him to where someone is holding a tribunate and let him take over. Send to former tribune to where someone is holding a Quaestorship and (by the time he becomes eligible for the office) let him take over. Send the former quaestor to where someone is holding the office of Aedilis............and so on.

    Filling the ranks
    In general, you should try to have FM's take office as soon as they are eligible, especially for the ranks of Quaestor and Praetor. Requirement to progress up the cursus honorum is to have held those offices, not to hold them. So, by all means, kick an experienced FM out of office to be replaced by a less experienced one. That only speeds up the rate at which FM's climb the cursus honorum, and prevent a situation where you end up with too few FM's at the top of the hierarchy to serve as praetors and consuls.

    Relations between numbers of regions owned and available offices
    Rg Co|Pr |Ae|Qu|Tr|Sum
    00 02|01|02|02|00|07
    10 02|01|02|02|04|11
    20 02|02|02|04|08|18
    30 02|03|02|06|10|23
    40 02|04|02|08|12|28
    50 03|04|02|10|14|33
    60 03|05|02|10|16|36
    70 04|05|02|10|18|39
    80 04|06|02|10|20|42
    90 05|06|02|10|22|45


    Disabling the roman leadership system (UNTESTED, AT YOUR OWN RISK).
    If you have started a campaign and find the system not to your liking, there is a way to make it "die out".
    Open the file descr_character_traits.txt and search for the phrase Roman Leadership Trigger Section. Select and delete all subsequent triggers until you arrive at the phrase Spy Trigger Section. Without triggers, new characters won't receive the traits involved in the system. To get rid of fro, the start, you also have to remove all references to the system in descr_strat.txt
    Last edited by Muizer; November 20, 2012 at 05:39 AM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  2. #2

    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    So basically, if I'm understanding this system:

    - Your offensive field armies (deployed outside Roman territory) MUST be lead by a Consul
    - Your defensive field armies (deployed inside Roman territory) can be lead by a Consul or a Praetor
    - All other family members must end their turns in a friendly settlement (thus, leading garrisons/managing settlements)

    So only a very small number of family members can be used for 'wars of aggression'. What is the penalty if you have a non-Consul/non-Praetor leading an offensive army? Are you better off without any leader at all for such an army?



  3. #3
    MasterOfThessus's Avatar RTR Betateam Leader
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    So basically, if I'm understanding this system:

    - Your offensive field armies (deployed outside Roman territory) MUST be lead by a Consul
    - Your defensive field armies (deployed inside Roman territory) can be lead by a Consul or a Praetor
    - All other family members must end their turns in a friendly settlement (thus, leading garrisons/managing settlements)

    So only a very small number of family members can be used for 'wars of aggression'. What is the penalty if you have a non-Consul/non-Praetor leading an offensive army? Are you better off without any leader at all for such an army?
    To your second question, yes, normal family members get huge morale penalties. But if you would send out your armies lead by captains you migth as well disable the system via the launcher

  4. #4

    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfThessus View Post
    To your second question, yes, normal family members get huge morale penalties. But if you would send out your armies lead by captains you migth as well disable the system via the launcher
    I like the idea behind this system, since Rome did indeed only have so many field armies in any given year, so I will play with it turned on and try to 'play historically'...



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    MasterOfThessus's Avatar RTR Betateam Leader
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Good luck!

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    What is the penalty if you have a non-Consul/non-Praetor leading an offensive army? Are you better off without any leader at all for such an army?
    Armies have lower morale and major settlements may have lower public order compared to a situation without a general/governor.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  7. #7

    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Not to speak of the corruption...

    Havce a question as well: I have a Praetor in rome, who is now ready to get the consul appointment. Of course he still has his praetor ancillary, too. Do I have to transfer that one, or does the fact he does not get the consul anc. just mean there are not enough of them? Do I have to transfer the old one afterwards then?

  8. #8
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Good call! Yes, you need to move the praetor one out first. No new appointment "lands" on an FM who already has a command. That's to prevent accidental stacking of commands. If your eligible FM still does not get his command, then there just aren't any available. You'll have 2 consuls for most of the game. Only when your faction reaches imperial proportions will you get more.

    Updated the OP.
    Last edited by Muizer; September 02, 2011 at 05:51 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  9. #9

    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Thanks for the answer!

    That sounds like a lot of logistics to me, also when I'm thinking about the ancillary maximum. Is there a way to just delete an ancillary? Don't know one after years of playing...

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    MasterOfThessus's Avatar RTR Betateam Leader
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by DeWitt8 View Post
    Thanks for the answer!

    That sounds like a lot of logistics to me, also when I'm thinking about the ancillary maximum. Is there a way to just delete an ancillary? Don't know one after years of playing...
    Stack them on a imbicill, and send him on a "glorious charge"

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Heh, the leadership system limits the number of other ancillaries. Or, it keeps a couple of free slots for appointments at all times.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  12. #12

    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Okay now I'm confused... I thought it was traits only and didn't require micromanagement beyond putting FMs in the right place.

    Can a play tester explain how they managed this system over the course of a few years? I really like the idea but I'm afraid I'm going to screw it up horribly and lose a crucial battle because my FM lost his consulship or something...



  13. #13
    DukeCanada's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    Okay now I'm confused... I thought it was traits only and didn't require micromanagement beyond putting FMs in the right place.

    Can a play tester explain how they managed this system over the course of a few years? I really like the idea but I'm afraid I'm going to screw it up horribly and lose a crucial battle because my FM lost his consulship or something...
    Well, a Consul cant lose his Consulship.

    The idea is basically that you will have to wait until a FM gets a trait. Lets say the Aedile is eligible for Praetorship. You can do one of a few things. You can give away his Aedile a ancillary (perhaps to a Quaestor looking to become an Aedile), and move this Quaestor to Rome. In Rome your Aedile can become a Praetor (after a few turns).

    Alternatively, you can bring a Praetor to your Aedile, and pass the Praetor ancillary to the Aedile. The Praetor who made the donation will have to head to Rome to get another Praetor ancillary. Now, the Aedile will still need to get rid of his Aedile ancillary, so eventually you should give it some FM that needs it.

    Now, there is a logistical problem here. Eventually you will get more ancillaries floating around than FM's eligible to hold them. So what you do is load all the unwanted ancillaries on a FM and use him to travel your empire giving away ancillaries. Alternatively you can send this man into the heartland of the enemy empire and see how long he lasts .
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    FriendlyFire's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    Okay now I'm confused... I thought it was traits only and didn't require micromanagement beyond putting FMs in the right place.
    Best way I've found to think about it:

    1. The FM doesn't get the position until he has the "eligible" trait AND he has the appropriate ancillary AND he doesn't have any other position ancillaries AND he's in a friendly city (consuls excepted, but by the time you have consuls you'll have mastered this stuff)
    2. New ancillaries are generated at Roma, to anyone who has the appropriate eligible trait and no other ancillaries, until the maximum number allowed by your empire size is reached.
    3. Sending everyone back to Roma just to get the right ancillary all the time is a real pain, so it's easier to use your new FMs (who have five years where they can't do anything else and are useless at governing) to shuttle them around.

  15. #15
    freakkriek's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    i'm playing my first campaign as SPQR and i'm really loving it
    BUT

    i was using FM as transports for appointments but at one time i had one FM carrying to praetor appointments which he wasn't eligble to be so i let him storm into a phalanx,
    problem solved you say???
    well no, i have now already 3familymember eligble for the praetor positions but nothing happenend so i
    turned the leadership of in the main menu....

    questions: -why doesn't the praetor appointment come
    - is the turning off of leadership save game compatible, i mean did it chance in my game as well? because i haven't seen a difference yet, still transporting functions i'm afraid,
    - a family member of mine (no appointment so morale was a disaster...) took carthage and got the trait "carthage conquorer" and then it says "go to roma to get trait"... but i already got it no???

    suggestion: so now i have a lot of family member stacked in some cities with only ONE FM who actually has some traits.... i love the principle behind the leadership but i find you should be able to put family members in cites without neg bonusses (maybe option where you can chose gouvernor, like this you can choose NOT tou use family member) beucause now they are just dead weight and you don't care for them....

    I love the way you imprinted the way a real roman civilization works but... well it's true they had only consuls leading armies as such but... when they were attacked on different front they also appointed dictators who would give armies to friends (people with much influence or from same party) so maybe the ability to give armies under control of a FM or other special person.. i don't know...
    the problem is... most of the time at least one consol stayed in rome (to look good and plot against other one) so i keep one there and the other one makes Capua a money maker and since i don't have any decent paetors and aedile( they can become consuls but it wouldn't help me they have no command)

    conclusion: sorry for the not so structured message but i LOVE this mod, just don't really get the leadership thing yet
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  16. #16

    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    One thing I wonder with the Roman Leadership system: Why can't Praetors leave their provinces? From the mid-republic onwards praetors waged plenty of wars that I recall. Caesar won a triumph as praetor, which he declined to be able to stand for consul in time, Marius earned his military-man credentials as praetor in Spain. Not major wars, true. But offensive.

    Also there are several occasions where junior officers such as questors took over command after some kind of disaster. Cassius after Carrhae fought off the Parthians for two years while holding the rank of Questor. After the elder Scipio fell to the Carthaginians in Spain it was the tribune Lucius Marcius who defended the remnants of the Roman province.

    I think that the Roman leadership system could be a little bit more flexible. A tribune could lead a battle, if he was talented and his men believed the circumstances gave him sufficient authority to do so. A praetor could wage a minor offensive war.

    Europa Barbarorum uses a trait system to impose penalties on generals operating outside of friendly territory, to simulate the difficulties of supply. Perhaps a similar system could be used to force Praetors to fight short campaigns at best? Where they -can- operate outside of their provinces, but start suffering morale penalties if the war drags on for more than a couple of turns?

  17. #17
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    The remit of the Praetor is on the agenda. You're right that they ought to have a limited offensive capability. As far as I know it was quite normal for Rome to designate a whole geographical area as "province" before it was properly pacified and Praetors should be able to do that. The technical issue is how to make this work, without making the remit rules overly complicated. Predictability counts for a lot.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  18. #18

    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    You could just not remit the office, but implement command and morale penalties in enemy territory that increase over time which would make it impractical to use the praetor for major offensives. It's not entirely historically accurate, but then neither is a praetor moving to a different province.

  19. #19

    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    im kinda confused, how do i give a family member an ancillary, and at what point could i use a FM in combat?

  20. #20
    DukeCanada's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: RTR VII Feature highlight: Roman Leadership

    Give a FM an ancillary by: passing from another FM, or having him in rome (with no other ancillaries) if he is eligible for the ancillary.

    If a FM is a Praetor he can defend provinces, if a FM is a consul he can do whatever he wants.
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