Sultanate of Rum -- Historical roster suggestions

[Dago Red]

(illustration of Turks of Rum, late 11th and 12th century. Hook, Osprey)

I know work is being done on this faction and the historical inaccuracy of the Ottoman components are being removed. But perhaps some of these suggestions will still be useful -- in any case I've designed them to be more of a temporary solution that uses the current models and skins available since so much work has already been done. Maybe this would be useful for a pre-3.0 update.

I've included 2 eras, early/pre-Mongol invasion and late/post Mongol invasion. The Sultanate of Rum at this early time was composed of three main army elements which can be generalized into the following categories:

Turcomans, Ghulams, and local levies/mercenaries of mixed origins (Greeks, Turks, Danishmandids, Armenians, Georgians, etc) -- this 3rd category is mixed into the following roster and includes the Tribal Turcoman warrior shepherds, Igdish Infantry and the AoR troops already in game such as Anatolian axemen and Anatolian (spear) levy.

Turks of Rum should be, as a whole, light mounted warriors skilled with bow and javelin. Largely composed of frontier Turcomans and horse archers, they should be overall, more lightly armed and armored than their surrounding enemies. But faster and more agile, especially in the 'early' army. The Ghulams should be the only real exception category, aside from a couple other exceptions in the other 2 categories. Even then, the Sultanate of Rum should only have access to the mid-range Ghulams.

Their strengths should lie in unparalleled battlefield mobility, surprise and ambush tactics, and an interesting array of ranged units which, when employed effectively can do the jobs of swords and spears without ever even touching the enemy.

Basic summation:
Strengths -- Numerous and diverse horse archers allowing for a great deal of tactical options and battlefield mobility, fast light cavalry, early (but limited) access to Ghulams, ambushers and units which can use the hills, grass and terrain to hide anywhere. Exceptional late era heavy horse units.

Weaknesses -- Limited and largely poor early infantry. Limited (but highly effective) late infantry. Lack of native spear infantry.

Early army

Mounted:

Turcomans and Seljuk Turks

Seljuk Turk horse archers (RB and CB), Frontier Turcoman horse archers (RB and CB), Tribal Turcoman warrior shepherds (AoR).

The core of the Sultanate's army, a wide variety of horse archers. Using a combination of long distance archer harassment (the RB units) and horsemen trained in daring short range barrages capable of piercing armor (the CB units) the Rum Turks can deliver knock out blows to all but the most disciplined enemies before having to close in for melee.

Common attributes: light armor (no armor but shield for the 3 Turcoman units), excellent archers, large quantity of arrows, high (Seljuk) - medium (Turcoman) accuracy, cantabrian circle, poor melee, good - average morale, hide in woods, Turcomans hide_anywhere.

Nobles and light cavalry

Turks of Rum Nobles, Akinci javelin cavalry, Mounted Turcoman Ghazi's

Mixed in with the horse archers, the Turks of Rum have no shortage of fast, light cavalry capable of running down fleeing troops, engaging other light cavalry, and engaging enemy infantry that has been withered down by their missiles. Note: Nobles fight with bow but are adept melee fighters when need be.

Common attributes: Medium armor (light armor for Turcoman), good morale, good melee, extremely fast mounts.

update: Akinci / Akinji have been definitively shown to be more than a term for a light raider, but the official name of an Ottoman era military unit. Unless someone can show that the term was used to describe light horsemen of the 12-14century it will not work for BC.

Ghulams

Regular and Jr Horse archers, Regular and Jr lancers.

The Turks of Rum had varying degrees of access to Ghulams depending on the time frame and the ability to pay for the relatively high cost of attaining these slaves, raising, training and equipping them. They form the professional, standing army of the Sultan, loyal and fearless.

Common attributes: Medium (jr) armor - Heavy (regulars) armor, Good - high morale, powerful charge, high accuracy archers, good - excellent melee.


Foot:

Foot archers, skirmishers and foot infantry.

Seljuk Swordsman, Turcoman foot archer, Igdish infantry(formerly frontiersmen), Seljuk Majra bowmen (crossbowmen) Turcoman Ghazi's, Turcoman Javelin Ghazi's.

The Seljuks of Rum were not known for fighting on foot, until later, but sometimes infantry is necessary, if not at all preferred. Note: the Igdish Infantry are hardy warriors from Anatolia from mostly a mixture of Turkish and Greek stock, including Christian intermarriages. The term frontiersmen is redundant since all the Igdish, Turcomman, and Ghazi's were basically all frontiersmen. The Majra unit does not truly use a crossbow, but a kind of precursor to the crossbow which uses a bow and an arrow guide to fire darts....it is more unique and Turkish, so seems a better and more interesting fit. They could be slightly less powerful than a crossbow but also fire faster.

Common attributes: Fast moving, excellent stamina, light - medium armor (ghazi's no armor but shields and caps), average to good morale, hide in forest, Ghazi's and Igdish hide_anywhere.

[Dago Red]

Late army (post Mongol invasion)


There should be, as would be historically correct, a stepping stone to the Ottoman era units, and more heavier units overall. Just for gameplay reasons, the Turks of Rum need a broader roster and since many units are already created for them it seems reasonable to essentially use these in the meantime before other skins can be created. Simply changing the names, stats and attributes can be a reasonable way to do this.

Mounted:

Heavy Household cavalry and local mixed mercenaries from the Sultanate.

Havashi Horse Archers (formerly Sipahi HA), Havashi Heavy Lancers(formerly Sipahi), Jira Khvar (formerly Timariot).


After the early Crusades and then a resurgent ERE greatly disrupted the Sultanate of Rum for many decades, they began to institute new military reforms. Part of this came with becoming a more settled people -- gone were the days of Kilij Arslan the Sultan whom they said lived and slept on the back of a saddle. These units represent the kinds of heavier units outside the Ghulam ranks that could be seen as precursors to the types of military reforms in place after the Ottoman era.

The Havashi are household heavy horse.

The Jira Khvar are mixed medium mercenaries recruited from Anatolia (not available to other factions) including Greeks, Georgians, Turks and mixed Turco-Greeks along with numerous "latins" who have abandoned the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Common attributes: High morale and cost, heavy armor (Jira medium/heavy), powerful charge.



Foot:

Seymen (Janissary model as placeholder)


Formed in the late 11th century, the Seymen represented the need for a standing garrison/police force in towns and castles across the Sultanate. They were an irregular militia. (Note: Janissary models won't be historical since they are too particular for what they were created with the caps and buttoned coats, etc, but it's a good placeholder for the unit -- also read so many people loving them so it's excuse to keep them in some capacity until new unit can be created. Moreover images (1, 2, 3 )I've seen of Seymen depictions aren't drastically different in many ways which you can see).

Attributes: Suggest medium armored swordsmen designed for garrison defense, also useful in siege/countersiege warfare. Free_upkeep if garrisoned. Garrison policing bonus possible in BC?

Silahtars or Tirpan Silahtars (formerly Tirpan Azap)


Meaning "weaponmasters" or something like that, they represent precursors to Ottoman era heavy pole arm infantry. They are shock infantry, used to cut through enemy infantry and even medium horse with their heavy tirpan axes.

Attributes: Heavy armor, high morale, bonus v cavalry, AP, frighten enemy infantry.

Jandars (formerly Ottoman heavy infantry)

Heavy guardsmen tasked with defending important cities and castles and/or attacking them. Jandars are a Turks of Rum late era variation on the Ghulams. They combine elements of east and west, in a heavy armored unit suitable for assaulting fortifications or breaking enemy infantry lines.

Attributes: Heavy armor, high morale, AP, shield_wall




On the Turks of Rum general bodyguard: This unit is heavily over-armored, being an Ottoman era 14th century and later depiction. They need a new bodyguard unit -- suggest the Havashi/Sipahi instead. Could use the current Qapikulu model as a Syrian cataphract for one of the new 3.0 Seljuk realms to the east.

Sources, updated:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...9#post10194629
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...8#post10204158

[Tureuki]

We'll rework on Seljuk roster, I'm working on it now but I don't know that Igdish units, I didn't seen anything about that unit on my Turkish sources.

[Dago Red]

I will post sources and texts later, some which refer to these Igdish forces. That took so much longer to post than I expected, that I have to quit now!

[Tureuki]

Btw İğdiş mean eunuch in Turkish, but sources al says its used for mixed people too I guess I found same info about them now reading.

[Atabeg]

Btw İğdiş mean eunuch in Turkish, but sources al says its used for mixed people too I guess I found same info about them now reading.

It roughly means "full-blown" in Azerbaijani Turkish.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Armor piercing arrows? Sources?

[Vanguard13]

This is going in the right direction. I'm also working on a sub-mod that fixes this Ottoman Turk problem. I tend to agree with the descriptions given by Dago Red.

I think, though that the emphasis of a 'ghulam' being different from other forms of impressed levies seen in the 'west' is wrong. It is essentially an occidental view of 'orientalism'. The idea that they were 'slaves' in the manner understood by westerners paints, and derives from, a eurocentric view of oriental 'yolk'.

A ghulam represents the same thing as professional levies that any lord would bring into battle with him. They are descriptive of a specific feudal relationship, and do NOT aesthetically demarcate a specific 'military order'. A ghulam would not 'appear' oriental unless they specifically happened to be, but this would be incidental. It defines the relationship, not their armor, their garb, their religion, or their culture.

Ghulams as a word are a turkic neologism (and turkish is synthetic anyways) which describes essentially a feudal type relationship which existed also in the Orthodox and Constantine dominated Balkans. You would simply find serbian and bulgarian words to describe those people over there.

Point is: ghulams shouldn't 'look' oriental or 'look' different from Armenian, Georgian, Roman units. They are 'ghulams' because their relationship, not race or appearance or specific order.

[wudang_clown]

Point is: ghulams shouldn't 'look' oriental or 'look' different from Armenian, Georgian, Roman units. They are 'ghulams' because their relationship, not race or appearance or specific order.

That's interesting, but as far as I know ghulam is Arabic word which is present in medieval Muslim texts to describe military slaves bound to their lords not by feudal relations (I'd be also careful describing various relations in the East as feudal in Western sense) but by property law, at least juridically. In that sense they were not levies, but property.

Also, "race" played important role in formation of ghulam regiments, as those were mostly people who were initially from the outside of Dar al-Islam and who had to create new bonds within its boundaries. Also, I haven't heard anything about Christian military slaves in service of Muslim amirs; I think conversion did play considerable role in formation of that particular force.

Another thing is - their appearance doesn't have to reassemble Eastern fashion, yes, but keep in mind that there can be only few variations of outfit for particular unit in M2TW, and we can assume that it was rather uniform in formations that were considered elite of professionals (at least in case of Ayyubid tawashi). Certainly, they were using better than an average equipment, better quality cloths etc. Reportedly, Ghaznavid ghulams of palace guard were equipped in golden parade weaponry, and they were wearing best fabrics available. That was natural to represent your status by means of your appearance, so the question is, which fashion those warriors considered as more attractive from their point of view.

Another question is - what do we want to emphasize: differences (which in the long run may make an impression of somewhat artificial divisions, but which, after all, are quite natural and understandable in M2TW mods) or similarities (which in the long run make a false impression that everything in fact comes down to the same)?

[Dago Red]

There are plenty of accounts of the Turks arrows wounding and killing even heavily armored knights... they just didn't do it that often unless getting in close (I can post some sources later). BC represents this beautifully with the dual horse archer units - regular bow and close bow. It just needs to be more available for the player. It's a great gameplay device, and fun to play with.

@ Vanguard. Thanks for reading and your thoughts. On the Ghulam topic I guess you might know more about them than I do. However, since they represent a standing army (that's what they were for!) they tended to be better equipped. In the Sultanate of Rum which was greatly defined by it's large presence of light Turcomans, they would stand out.

At this time, they would be similar in appearance to the ERE in dress and armor though, you're right. Still, there would be decidedly "Oriental" as you put it, flourishes to their depiction. For example, they would most likely be wearing their chainmail completely concealed under cloth and fight in melee with the flanged mace which were both uncommon among other warriors in the ERE or Georgia. The definition of slave here can be debated more, but that might be better elsewhere.

[Tureuki]

According to some serious Turkish sources, İğdiş is not an military unit.

[Vanguard13]

Let me clarify my aim here:

Broken Crescent as a mod correctly illustrates the pseudo-oriental appearance of many of the Eastern Roman units.

For that reason, there is no need to 'further' Turkify or Orientalize any other Anatolian faction (like Roman Seljuks) just because they are 'muslim'.

I agree that post mongol invasion Anatolian units should appear more turko-steppic.

But the 'Turkic' 'invasion' WAS the mongol invasion. Thus, prior to the mongol invasion of Anatolia, the units and culture should be that pseudo-oriental Hellenic style which is utilized in Broken Crescent for the ERE.

Hence, Roman Seljuks should be recruiting about the same roster as the ERE, until the Mongol invasion. They should not look like they come from Baghdad or western China. But the Roman Seljuks should have more access to Kurdish, Cesarian, Trebizondian, Armenian units than Byzantium would (until Rome retakes those areas, if your game goes that way). Ghulams and levies and specialized units should look like them. Not 'asian'. There is nothing 'turkic' about a ghulam. The ghulam relationship predate the mongol/turkic invasion.

Indeed, I'm working towards a Seljuk Roman faction roster which initially has the look and feel of a break-away/split/successor state of the ERE. Seljuk Romans should look and feel much more HELLENIC. Insofar as they are oriental, it should look and feel more IRANIAN. This accurately reflects the 11th and 12th centuries.

[Atabeg]

Let me clarify my aim here:

Broken Crescent as a mod correctly illustrates the pseudo-oriental appearance of many of the Eastern Roman units.

For that reason, there is no need to 'further' Turkify or Orientalize any other Anatolian faction (like Roman Seljuks) just because they are 'muslim'.

I agree that post mongol invasion Anatolian units should appear more turko-steppic.

But the 'Turkic' 'invasion' WAS the mongol invasion. Thus, prior to the mongol invasion of Anatolia, the units and culture should be that pseudo-oriental Hellenic style which is utilized in Broken Crescent for the ERE.

Hence, Roman Seljuks should be recruiting about the same roster as the ERE, until the Mongol invasion. They should not look like they come from Baghdad or western China. But the Roman Seljuks should have more access to Kurdish, Cesarian, Trebizondian, Armenian units than Byzantium would (until Rome retakes those areas, if your game goes that way). Ghulams and levies and specialized units should look like them. Not 'asian'. There is nothing 'turkic' about a ghulam. The ghulam relationship predate the mongol/turkic invasion.

Indeed, I'm working towards a Seljuk Roman faction roster which initially has the look and feel of a break-away/split/successor state of the ERE. Seljuk Romans should look and feel much more HELLENIC. Insofar as they are oriental, it should look and feel more IRANIAN. This accurately reflects the 11th and 12th centuries.

Are you OK?

They are called Seljuqs of "Rum" because they occupied former lands of Eastern Roman Empire aka Byzantines, not because they were "Roman". And they were pretty much still nomadic.

[Vanguard13]

Are you OK?

They are called Seljuqs of "Rum" because they occupied former lands of Eastern Roman Empire aka Byzantines. There was no "Hellenic influence" on Anatolian Seljuqs whatsoever and they were pretty much still nomadic.

That is the view of the historian Alexander Khazdan. He is one historian of many. He may be right, partly right, partly wrong, or wholly wrong.

I believe he would be wholly wrong if he held the view, though he does not (it is your view), that this explanation ruled out Hellenic influence upon the Anatolian Seleuks.

The conflagration of Iranian and Hellenic cultures predates the 11th century split by at least 1300 years.

Prior to the Turko-Mongol invasions of Anatolia, the cultural aesthetic would simply be a conflagration of Irano-Hellenic culture, and their local derivatives (Armenian, Georgian, Kurdish, Trebezondic, etc.)

[Tureuki]

Vanguard13

Obviously absurd, their culture and military is clear.

[Vanguard13]

Vanguard13

Obviously absurd, their culture and military is clear.

Not sure what you're saying is absurd. Please advise.

[Tureuki]

The whole post is absurd, you know nothing about them.

[Vanguard13]

The whole post is absurd, you know nothing about them.

Thank you for your constructive analysis and critique.

[Tureuki]

Dago Red

Havashi word is simply used for retinue, it could be civilian retinue too but generally used as military retinue, its not a spesific term for any spesific unit.

Jira Khvar, should be Ecri Hor, Cera Hor or Ceri Hor, common term for mercenary, Seljuks used mercenaries from almost everwhere, Turks,Kurds,Arabs,Kipchaks,Franks,Georgians(not sure for Mercenary, recorded at battle of Yassıçemen and Kösedağ, could be allied forces) etc.

Silahtars and Jandars probably part of the Royal Ghulam but I'll research it, Silahtars are most likely used composite bows, they mentioned with best quality bows avaible in the middle east.

For Seymen, not sure, their reaility is not clear.

No need to deep details because there isn't enough info, I'll prepare a reasonable roster

[knight who says nee]

please just remove all janissary units, seeing them in the 11th century makes me cringe