Why did the easterners need to massively outnumber the crusaders in order to win?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

In every battle fought during the crusades the Muslims seem to have massively outnumbered the crusaders, yet even then not always did they succeed. What caused this martial inferiority?

[wudang_clown]

Oh boy, not again...

What battles exactly do you have on mind and what numbers?

[Tureuki]

In my opinion, fighting style, for example, Crusaders using armour advantage to charge their enemy, Turks using hit and run tactics with their horse archery skills and using light armour to gain flexibility, Turks damaging to Crusader lines but couldn't manage to totally defeat them because foe's armour advantage and their lack of melee capability, besides that, Crusaders couldn't manage to totally defeat Turks because they're not going to melee fight and they have flexibility, Turks able to totally defeat them with outnumbered forces in melee, so its just about incompatibility of fighting style, its not mean Turks are worse soldiers and Crusaders are super humans, but of course everthing ending on strategy and luck.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

For example the battle of Jaffa, where 54 knights defeated 7000 Muslims, or Dorylaeum, where 10 thousand crusaders defeated 150 thousand Turks. Pretty much every battle of the crusades matches my description.

BTW, why do you refer to the Muslims as "Turks"?

[Tureuki]

I gave the Turks as just example

150 thousand ? omg what did you drink there was maximum 10 to 20 000 Turks and as I said Crusaders couldn't managed to annihilate them, they retreated.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Wikipedia gives a minimum of 25 thousand Turks to no more than 3000 knights and 12 thousand foot.

[Tureuki]

Wikipedia gives different numbers in every language, its maximum 20 000.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The English one is bound to be less biased than the Turkish one... Also, it seems you've never had booze - you overestimate its effects.


The inferiority of eastern soldiers goes a long way back, to be frank. See the Greco-Persian wars, Alexander's conquests, Roman humiliation of Parthia, Roman humiliation of the Sassanids, the Crusades, European wars with the Ottomans, etc, etc.

[Tureuki]

Just

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Care to prove at least some of it wrong? Assuming you can.

[Tureuki]

I thought my first post is enough ?

[wudang_clown]

At Ramla in 1102, 200 knights were annihilated by a "vastly superior" force. What "vastly superior" means, depends on point of view.

At Harran in 1104, over 10 000 crusaders were ambushed and defeated by 10 000 Turks.

At Jaffa in 1192, which you bring as an example of your risky thesis, there was around 50-80 knights, sure, but they were accompanied by 2000 infantry.

There are more such examples, I recommend you further reading, Cocroach the great, if you are really interested in the topic.

That being said, and considering the direction this discussion has taken, leading directly to poor quality bragging match, I'm closing this thread.