Minor Issues on some units (I may update this thread as I find more)

**Kitbuqa** · August 27, 2011, 09:53 AM

Harad seems to lack any HA. They have a bodyguard unit, which is not useful due to its small size. Also, Spearmen of the Serpent get their butts kicked by basic gondorian swordsmen. I realize that they are spearmen, but they are also a high quality unit. Also, why is the proportion of cavalry compared with Infantry so high?

Horsemen of Harnen don't couch their spears during a charge which makes them do little if any damage.

**CountMRVHS** · August 27, 2011, 10:37 AM

I don't think Aradan will mind if I answer this one.

Harad's lack of HA is, I believe, a design choice. Harad has plenty of cav available, including skirmishers and, as you mentioned, the bodyguard. I would disagree that Harad's BG is not useful - they can be *very* useful if used correctly.

All units will be rebalanced for DoM. Spearmen of the Serpent, like all of Harad's infantry, must be used carefully to get best results. In the lore, Harad/Umbar was more dangerous to the RK as sea-raiders, or in combination with other, more powerful allies (Sauron). FATW models this by having Harad field numerically larger, but individually weaker, units. However, as said above - all units will be rebalanced and reevaluated.

Not sure what you mean by 'proportion of cav to infantry' - do you mean that Harad trains a lot of cav? That probably happens because some of Harad's best units are cav - Scarlet Shields are great, and the AI seems to know it. Makes sense that they would train a lot.

I've not noticed any trouble with any cav refusing to couch spears before a charge. Perhaps you (or the AI) aren't executing the charge correctly?

**Thangaror** · August 27, 2011, 12:39 PM

Horse-archers will make Harad's unit roster overpowered, I'd say.

I agree that Harad's units are slightly to weak. Therefore I've changed their stats, but as Count said, everything will be rebalanced

The issue with cavalry not lowering their spears is due to a player's mistake. Cavalry has to align properly before they can charge.

**Kitbuqa** · August 27, 2011, 12:42 PM

Yeah the Haradrim do have larger proportions of cav. and it seems all of their charger cavalry do not couch their lances, negating the charge almost completely. Their cav should be of similar quality and similar numerically. That simplifies balance. If the charge wasn't bugged they wouldn't need such high numbers of cavalry.

A players mistake? It happens every single time. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong.

Okay I see the problem. I can make them couch their lances, but the burden on the player is just too much. In the heat of battle it is often impossible to perfectly line up a unit of charger cavalry. Cavalry should be made to couch lances regardless of whether the formation is proper or not.

**Thangaror** · August 27, 2011, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Christendom I

A players mistake? It happens every single time. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong.

Okay I see the problem. I can make them couch their lances, but the burden on the player is just too much. In the heat of battle it is often impossible to perfectly line up a unit of charger cavalry. Cavalry should be made to couch lances regardless of whether the formation is proper or not.

I strongly disagree.

**Aradan** · August 27, 2011, 12:54 PM

The charge thing is a game engine issue, we cannot fix it. Perhaps improve it a bit with the proper charge distance values, we'll look into it, but it's not as simple as it sounds...

**Nehcrum** · September 01, 2011, 11:14 AM

Harad has lots of spearmen because they have lots of cavalry. It actually makes sense (altho not for in-game purposes), since internal fighting is quite common. It also matches their typical desert-style, where cavalry is important for large open areas and spearmen are important as a counter to said cavalry.

Originally Posted by Aradan

The charge thing is a game engine issue, we cannot fix it. Perhaps improve it a bit with the proper charge distance values, we'll look into it, but it's not as simple as it sounds...

Will decreasing charge distance in EDU mean cavalry can charge from a shorter distance? Will a 0 mean they always charge when they engage, no matter how close?

**Kitbuqa** · August 27, 2011, 12:55 PM

Oh darn. Why is it an issue in some mods but not others? I believe I have seen this issue not being a problem in atleast some mods.

**Aradan** · August 27, 2011, 12:58 PM

The charge distance thingy affects it, I believe, but also battlemap movement speed modifiers (the lower they are, the worse. afaik). As I said, I'll look into it when we get at that stage of development.

**Kitbuqa** · August 27, 2011, 07:52 PM

Thanks Aradan.

Thangaror

I strongly disagree with your disagree with your disagreement. ^_^

**Aradan** · September 01, 2011, 03:49 PM

Lower charge distance means the unit will start its charging animation, lower their lances and get charge-related bonuses/penalties at a closer distance to the target. Charge-distance 0 would mean the unit would start charging right after making contact with the enemy, which means it would never actually charge.

**Nehcrum** · September 01, 2011, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Aradan

Lower charge distance means the unit will start its charging animation, lower their lances and get charge-related bonuses/penalties at a closer distance to the target. Charge-distance 0 would mean the unit would start charging right after making contact with the enemy, which means it would never actually charge.

Does that mean lower charge distance (but above 0) is better or worse than longer charge distance?
Will a short range mean they will get into a quick charge, or that they will never actually make it into a charge since they don't complete the charging animation before impacting the enemy?

And will a really long charge distance mean they get into charge mode as soon as they are ordered to attack an enemy unit and then keep that up until they impact an enemy, even from halfway across the map?

And will they abort the charge and have to start over if given another target while in charge mode?

**Thangaror** · September 02, 2011, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Nehcrum

Does that mean lower charge distance (but above 0) is better or worse than longer charge distance?
Will a short range mean they will get into a quick charge, or that they will never actually make it into a charge since they don't complete the charging animation before impacting the enemy?

I'm not sure whether the charge bonus is coupled to the animation or the other way round. Yeah, basically if the charge distance is low, it'll be a quick charge over a short distance. I'm not sure if charge distance can be that short that the animation is not completed.

Some units do have a ridiculous long charge distance, usually missile units. Has something to do with their ranged attack, AFAIK.

And will a really long charge distance mean they get into charge mode as soon as they are ordered to attack an enemy unit and then keep that up until they impact an enemy, even from halfway across the map?

Aye.

And will they abort the charge and have to start over if given another target while in charge mode?

This depends.
See, infantry *ALWAYS* charges. You can order them attack enemy A and order them to attack enemy B and they'll hesitate for a second and simply change their course (I think, not quite sure though). If B is right in their back or at their flanks, they'll stop, turn around and charge again, in a somewhat chaotic formation. So it depends on where the enemy is. They also can charge in any direction (e.g. a unit at their flanks or rear). If the enemy is at their flank, you'll see that the unit sort of moves sidewards. Something they are sadly not able to do normally.

Cavalry is more complicated for some reason. I *HAVE* seen riders turning on the point charging a pursuing enemy. But often if they are ordered to attack another target the charge is interrupted and you'll have to stop them, align and then charge.

I'd say for most units the charge distance is good as it is. The problem Pale Horsemen has might indeed be tied to the comparably long charge distance, I think I've never seen this in vanilla where charge distances are shorter.

**Aradan** · September 02, 2011, 04:15 AM

The charge-related combat effects are tied to the animation. if the charge distance is too short (relative to the speed of the unit model's animation, the round type and the battlemap movement modifiers) then the unit might not have time to 'activate' its charge. That usually happens with cavalry, because infantry needs a short distance before its charge is "on". On the other hand, if the charge distance is too long, the charge animation might start and finish before contact with the other unit, in which case the charge is wasted and the unit just got tired for nothing.

It's a balancing act...

**Spike** · September 04, 2011, 06:21 AM

about charge distances, most mod make up with 40-50-60 m for cavalry and it always work even when double clicking on the heat of battle, but that was with fs_hc_spearman skeleton

the EB animation of fs_thp_m_spearman seems to need longer charging distances for work, it seems, and they're used for riddermark spears, and giving every other cavalry that use fs_hc_spearman skeleton lower (50 m) charge distances works nicely