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  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default The Kingdom of god is:

    Within you

    or

    amidst you.

    Opinions (greek entos within/among/amidst)?

    This is taken from a site discussing the matter, source omitted initially because it expresses and opinion that I do not wish to prejudice the topic.

    Luke 17 (KJV)
    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Luke.17 (RSV)
    [20] Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
    [21 ] nor will they say, `Lo, here it is!' or `There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

    The phrase that captures our interest is the last one,

    . . . the kingdom of God is within you. (KJV)

    But from the RSV:

    the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

    There are other versions. For example,

    For the Kingdom of God is among you. (NLT)

    The FNT has the same:

    For behold the kingdom of God is among you.

    As you can observe, the KJV expresses an idea that differs from either the RSV, the NLT or the FNT. Which of these more accurately renders the Word of Jesus?

    The Greek word that he uttered is entos.

  2. #2
    cfmonkey45's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    The most common view of the "Kingdom" in recent scholarship is to embrace the truths of both these parties─present reality and future manifestation. Some scholars who take this view are N.T. Wright and G.R. Beasley-Murray. In their views, the “Kingdom” that Jesus spoke of will be fully realized in the future but it is also in a process of “in-breaking” into the present. This means that Jesus’ deeds and words have an immediate effect on the “Kingdom” even though it was not fully manifested during his life. Even greater attention has been paid to the concept of the “Kingdom of God” by scholars during the current third quest for the historical Jesus (with which N.T. Wright is associated).

    Roman Catholic
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) teaches that the coming Reign of God will be a kingdom of love, peace, and justice.[23] Justice is defined as a virtue whereby one respects the rights of all persons, living in harmony and equity with all.[24] The Kingdom of God began with Christ's death and Resurrection and must be further extended by Christians until it has been brought into perfection by Christ at the end of time.[25] The Christian does this by living the way Christ lived, by thinking the way Christ thought,[23] and by promoting peace and justice.[26] This can be accomplished by discerning how the Holy Spirit (God) is calling one to act in the concrete circumstances of one's life.[26] Christians must also pray, asking God for what is necessary to cooperate with the coming of God's Kingdom.[27] Jesus gathered disciples to be the seed and the beginning of God's Reign on earth, and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide them.[28] Jesus continues to call all people to come together around him[29] and to spread the Kingdom of God across the entire world.[30] However, the ultimate triumph of Christ's Kingdom will not come about until Christ's return to earth at the end of time.[31] During Christ's second coming, he will judge the living and the dead. Only those who are judged to be righteous and just will reign with Christ forever.[32] Christ's second coming will also mark the absolute defeat of all evil powers, including Satan.[33] Until then, the coming of the Kingdom will continue to be attacked by evil powers as Christians wait with hope for the second coming of their Savior.[34] This is why Christians pray to hasten Christ's return by saying to him "Maranatha!" which means "Come, Lord Jesus!".[35]
    According to Fr. William Barry, S.J., we can understand the Kingdom of God as God's intention for the universe. God has revealed that God's intention for our world is that all humans live as brothers and sisters, as sons and daughters of God (Is 2:2-5, 11:6-9, 40:4-5, Eph 1:3, 1:9-10). Our thoughts and actions can either be in tune with God's intention or not. Only by being in tune with God's intention will we ever know true fulfillment or happiness in this life. Prayer, discernment and knowledge of God's revealed Word are needed to discover how one can be in tune with God's intention.[36]


    Eastern Orthodox
    Within the theological tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church the Kingdom of God is the future of all humankind and the created world, in that God will be in direct communion with the cosmos. This communion is that all humankind will experience their existence in the presence of God, God as being the Kingdom of God, God as paradise and punishment.

  3. #3
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Denny Crane,

    What Jesus was telling these men was that even then, amongst them were certain people who were righteous before God, meaning they were born again. So when He said that the kingdom of God is amongst you or within you He was reflecting that people because to be righteous before God one has to be regenerate. The Baptist explained it when he said that belief in Jesus comes by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

    This was explained also when the Sanhedrin member went to see Jesus without others knowing, the result of which was the bringing up of rebirth and the Holy Spirit. Jesus told him that he should know of these things but the man didn't. He hadn't a clue. This is all due to the drawing of God the Father through the Holy Spirit who like the wind strikes as and where He sees this drawing.

    Notice that Jesus did not say that the kingdom of God was something still to come as it had been around from dear old Abel being the first to enter it. Nonetheless its surety was made certain by the death and resurrection of Jesus that day at Calvary. On that very day the keys to life and death were taken from Diablos and given back to their rightful owner. The accounts of all the saints up to that point were paid in full.

    So Jesus was not making any contradictions regarding the kingdom as both interpretations are quite correct both subject of course to regeneration or rebirth.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    No reason it can't be both. I don't think he was ever really talking about "some place you go when you die" but closer to the Buddhist concept of Nirvana when he was talking about the kingdom of heaven. The whole "eye of the needle" business didn't mean rich people will find it difficult to enter the good version of the afterlife, he was talking about attachment.
    Last edited by Helm; August 26, 2011 at 04:42 AM.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  5. #5
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    " No reason it can't be both. I don't think he was ever really talking about "some place you go when you die" but closer to the Buddhist concept of Nirvana when he was talking about the kingdom of heaven. The whole "eye of the needle" business didn't mean rich people will find it difficult to enter the good version of the afterlife, he was talking about attachment. "

    Helm,

    It certainly is both and I'll tell you why. Jesus was talking to men who were not regenerate yet others who lived around them, near them, were, so the kingdom being in them and them being in their midst made both intepretations quite correct.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    What does "regenerate" mean anyway? Before you can throw a word around the place it would be good to know what the word means in this context.
    Last edited by Helm; August 26, 2011 at 05:42 AM.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  7. #7
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    " What does "regenerate" mean anyway? Before you can throw a word around the place it would be good to know what the word means in this context. "

    Helm,

    When Jesus said that a man must be born again to enter heaven, He meant rebirth or regeneration of the fallen nature to a state where it was acceptable to God. In other words where the Law made by God could no more condemn them who had been transformed from sin to perfection or righteousness which means the same thing. The word means the very same in any context.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Just google Born again Christian. Always good for a good laugh.




  9. #9

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    It seems to mean a "spiritual rebirth". But does that mean going a bit
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ?
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Apparently, yes.




  11. #11
    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    I wonder what resolving this question really solves.

  12. #12
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    I wonder what resolving this question really solves.
    I had a debate on another site about the likes of meneir tohl and other christian anarchists this phrase is a commonly touted phrase that leads to a dispute about where the message of Jesus was directing peoples focus and how one should be a Christian.

    It is fundamental as part of a larger debate.

  13. #13
    nomad1414's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Every thing in life belongs to Allah (god) , because e is the creator of everything .



    (no spam please)

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    This is only an issue for those who have emphatically no understanding of Christian doctrine at all.

    The Kingdom of God is not in Spacetime, just like the deified soul is not. Every human soul, according to Christian understanding, is in potentiality a deified soul, and every human soul resides within us.

    Hereby we reach the true purpose of Christian experience: that if inner, ascetical transformation, so the Kingdom of God can be realized within us.

    This has nothing to do, whatsoever, with any political ideology, with anarchism, with private or public property, with public health budgets, with anti-government unprisings or with anything in the realm of profane concerns. Under the Christian perspective, these are all passing illusions that have no deep and necessary link towards the glorification of what is eternal within us.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  15. #15
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Quote Originally Posted by nomad1414 View Post
    Every thing in life belongs to Allah (god) , because e is the creator of everything .



    (no spam please)
    You are spamming my thread good lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    This is only an issue for those who have emphatically no understanding of Christian doctrine at all.

    The Kingdom of God is not in Spacetime, just like the deified soul is not. Every human soul, according to Christian understanding, is in potentiality a deified soul, and every human soul resides within us.

    Hereby we reach the true purpose of Christian experience: that if inner, ascetical transformation, so the Kingdom of God can be realized within us.

    This has nothing to do, whatsoever, with any political ideology, with anarchism, with private or public property, with public health budgets, with anti-government unprisings or with anything in the realm of profane concerns. Under the Christian perspective, these are all passing illusions that have no deep and necessary link towards the glorification of what is eternal within us.
    The argument wasn't about christian anarchism or political ideology but about the way people pursue their spirituality through a devotion to an external intangible thing or through personal spiritual development as some say this phrase suggests.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    You are spamming my thread good lord.



    The argument wasn't about christian anarchism or political ideology but about the way people pursue their spirituality through a devotion to an external intangible thing or through personal spiritual development as some say this phrase suggests.
    The correct is to pursue both. This is called, in Orthodox language at least, synergeia.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    This has nothing to do, whatsoever, with any political ideology, with anarchism, with private or public property, with public health budgets, with anti-government unprisings or with anything in the realm of profane concerns. Under the Christian perspective, these are all passing illusions that have no deep and necessary link towards the glorification of what is eternal within us.

    I don't want to turn Denny's thread into just another debate about the same but I'd like a single simple answer.

    Can a 'good' person who happens to have a different set of beliefs find oneself in the promised land? If so then what you've said is almost logical. Otherwise it's just another load of . Any god worth believing in would account for the fact that life isn't the same for everyone and that not everyone will have the chance to hear about 'It's Glory'.

    Yes or no. If you've more to say about it PM me and I'll make a new thread.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Can a 'good' person who happens to have a different set of beliefs find oneself in the promised land?
    Short answer: nobody knows who'll be saved or not. Only God. Now stop worrying, and learn to live with it.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  19. #19
    Hilarion's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    Short answer: nobody knows who'll be saved or not. Only God. Now stop worrying, and learn to live with it.
    You mean I wasted my time with this Bible Study Class? But I followed their checklist for salvation and everything!


  20. #20

    Default Re: The Kingdom of god is:

    There isn't anything to be saved from. If there is some kind of after death justice system then ok as long as its fair. Getting off Scott free just because you believed in a particular historical event doesn't seem fair to me I don't know what they were thinking when they came up with that idea.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

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