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    TestudoAubreii's Avatar Bugger Bamfield!
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    Default Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    Hello everyone,

    I know that this has probably been discussed a thousand times here since this section of the site opened many years ago, but I came across a pretty good article and I thought I would share it and possibly provoke a discussion.

    Here is the article.

    Here is is just in case you cannot open the page:
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    Let's go back to the beginning — all the way to Adam and Eve, and to the question: Did they exist, and did all of humanity descend from that single pair?


    According to the Bible (Genesis 2:7), this is how humanity began: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." God then called the man Adam, and later created Eve from Adam's rib.


    Polls by Gallup and the Pew Research Center find that four out of 10 Americans believe this account. It's a central tenet for much of conservative Christianity, from evangelicals to confessional churches such as the Christian Reformed Church.


    But now some conservative scholars are saying publicly that they can no longer believe the Genesis account. Asked how likely it is that we all descended from Adam and Eve, Dennis Venema, a biologist at Trinity Western University, replies: "That would be against all the genomic evidence that we've assembled over the last 20 years, so not likely at all."


    Researching The Human Genome
    Venema says there is no way we can be traced back to a single couple. He says with the mapping of the human genome, it's clear that modern humans emerged from other primates as a large population — long before the Genesis time frame of a few thousand years ago. And given the genetic variation of people today, he says scientists can't get that population size below 10,000 people at any time in our evolutionary history.


    To get down to just two ancestors, Venema says, "You would have to postulate that there's been this absolutely astronomical mutation rate that has produced all these new variants in an incredibly short period of time. Those types of mutation rates are just not possible. It would mutate us out of existence."
    Venema is a senior fellow at BioLogos Foundation, a Christian group that tries to reconcile faith and science. The group was founded by Francis Collins, an evangelical and the current head of the National Institutes of Health, who, because of his position, declined an interview.


    And Venema is part of a growing cadre of Christian scholars who say they want their faith to come into the 21st century. Another one is John Schneider, who taught theology at Calvin College in Michigan until recently. He says it's time to face facts: There was no historical Adam and Eve, no serpent, no apple, no fall that toppled man from a state of innocence.


    "Evolution makes it pretty clear that in nature, and in the moral experience of human beings, there never was any such paradise to be lost," Schneider says. "So Christians, I think, have a challenge, have a job on their hands to reformulate some of their tradition about human beginnings."


    'Fundamental Doctrines Of The Christian Faith'
    To many evangelicals, this is heresy.


    "From my viewpoint, a historical Adam and Eve is absolutely central to the truth claims of the Christian faith," says Fazale Rana, vice president of Reasons To Believe, an evangelical think tank that questions evolution. Rana, who has a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Ohio University, readily admits that small details of Scripture could be wrong.


    "But if the parts of Scripture that you are claiming to be false, in effect, are responsible for creating the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, then you've got a problem," Rana says.


    Rana and others believe in a literal, historical Adam and Eve for many reasons. One is that the Genesis account makes man unique, created in the image of God — not a descendant of lower primates. Second, it tells a story of how evil came into the world, and it's not a story in which God introduced evil through the process of evolution, but one in which Adam and Eve decided to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.





    Over four centuries, language from the 1611 translation has woven itself deeply into our culture.
    Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, says that rebellious choice infected all of humankind.


    "When Adam sinned, he sinned for us," Mohler says. "And it's that very sinfulness that sets up our understanding of our need for a savior.


    Mohler says the Adam and Eve story is not just about a fall from paradise: It goes to the heart of Christianity. He notes that the Apostle Paul (in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15) argued that the whole point of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection was to undo Adam's original sin.



    "Without Adam, the work of Christ makes no sense whatsoever in Paul's description of the Gospel, which is the classic description of the Gospel we have in the New Testament," Mohler says.


    Intellectual Rift
    That's only true if you read the Bible literally, says Dennis Venema at Trinity Western University. But if you read the Bible as poetry and allegory as well as history, you can see God's hand in nature — and in evolution.


    "There's nothing to be scared of here," Venema says. "There is nothing to be alarmed about. It's actually an opportunity to have an increasingly accurate understanding of the world — and from a Christian perspective, that's an increasingly accurate understanding of how God brought us into existence."
    This debate over a historical Adam and Eve is not just another heady squabble. It's ripping apart the evangelical intelligentsia.


    "Evangelicalism has a tendency to devour its young," says Daniel Harlow, a religion professor at Calvin College, a Christian Reformed school that subscribes to the fall of Adam and Eve as a central part of its faith.


    "You get evangelicals who push the envelope, maybe; they get the courage to work in sensitive, difficult areas," Harlow says. "And they get slapped down. They get fired or dismissed or pressured out."
    Harlow should know: Calvin College investigated him after he wrote an article questioning the historical Adam. His colleague and fellow theologian, John Schneider, wrote a similar article and was pressured to resign after 25 years at the college. Schneider is now beginning a research fellowship at Notre Dame.



    'A Galileo Moment'


    Several other well known theologians at Christian universities have been forced out; some see a parallel to a previous time when science conflicted with religious doctrine.


    "The evolution controversy today is, I think, a Galileo moment," says Karl Giberson, who authored several books trying to reconcile Christianity and evolution, including The Language of Science and Faith, with Francis Collins.


    Giberson — who taught physics at Eastern Nazarene College until his views became too uncomfortable in Christian academia — says Protestants who question Adam and Eve are akin to Galileo in the 1600s, who defied Catholic Church doctrine by stating that the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa. Galileo was condemned by the church, and it took more than three centuries for the Vatican to express regret at its error.


    "When you ignore science, you end up with egg on your face," Giberson says. "The Catholic Church has had an awful lot of egg on its face for centuries because of Galileo. And Protestants would do very well to look at that and to learn from it."


    Abandoning Theology?
    Fuzale Rana isn't so sure this is a Galileo moment: That would imply the scientists are correct. But he does believe the stakes are even higher in today's battle over evolution. It is not just about the movement of the earth, but about the nature of God and man, of sin and redemption.


    "I think this is going to be a pivotal point in Church history," he says. "Because what rests at the very heart of this debate is whether or not key ideas within Christianity are ultimately true or not."
    But others say Christians can no longer afford to ignore the evidence from the human genome and fossils just to maintain a literal view of Genesis.


    "This stuff is unavoidable," says Dan Harlow at Calvin College. "Evangelicals have to either face up to it or they have to stick their head in the sand. And if they do that, they will lose whatever intellectual currency or respectability they have."


    "If so, that's simply the price we'll have to pay," says Southern Baptist seminary's Albert Mohler. "The moment you say 'We have to abandon this theology in order to have the respect of the world,' you end up with neither biblical orthodoxy nor the respect of the world."


    Mohler and others say if other Protestants want to accommodate science, fine. But they shouldn't be surprised if their faith unravels.



    We know today that there is no way that everyone on earth was created by two people. I believe that we can also agree that a women cannot be made from a man's rib. I think we can also agree that snakes do not talk. So, does that not mean that this is story is just that, a story? And, if so, what does that do to Christianity? Is that not what the religion is based on?



    Testudo


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    SonOfOdin's Avatar More tea?
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    If Adam and Eve WERE real, and had two sons, the human race would have been extinct within two generations. Two males can't reproduce

    It's just a metaphorical story, even some priests admit that a lot of the Old Testament is "made up" to teach people complicated things using simple stories.
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    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    The historical factuality of Adam and Eve doesn't even warrant a discussion. Of course the story isn't real, and I would stay far away from anyone who insists that it is.

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    TestudoAubreii's Avatar Bugger Bamfield!
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    I agree. I know that there are still people out there that believe that this has to be true. For if it is not true (which it isn't), it would shatter much of the foundation of the religion in which they believe. I just find it hard to believe that people can actually still believe in this.

    Testudo


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    SonOfOdin's Avatar More tea?
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    You know why there are people who think it's true? Because that's what they've been thought either in school(religion lessons) or church.
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    TestudoAubreii's Avatar Bugger Bamfield!
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    I know. I think that in some cases, people just cannot except that fact of the matter because it would ruin what they have in their faith. If they turn a blind eye, all is well. Perhaps, they just don't want to believe that it is not true, even through it makes no sense whatsoever.

    Testudo


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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    Exactly how God created us, I don't know. If we were created through evolution it wouldn't bother me at all.
    It puzzles you how a woman could be created from man's rib and how a snake can talk, but you have to remember that God and Satan are not physical beings. He created our physical world; therefor you cannot prove or disprove his existence with science--something he is not bound by.
    The creation story may in some way be poetic. Jesus often spoke in parables yet he was not lying, but it being completely made up wouldn't make much sense. Genesis repeatedly uses the phrase "These are the generations of..." when introducing an event. Every other book in the bible is an eyewitness account and it would seem strange that Genesis is the only one to break with that pattern. That is just my view.

    Good article though

  8. #8

    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    I feel sorry for anyone who is deluded/ignorant enough to think this story is true.



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    TestudoAubreii's Avatar Bugger Bamfield!
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    Quote Originally Posted by keenann18 View Post
    Exactly how God created us, I don't know. If we were created through evolution it wouldn't bother me at all.
    It puzzles you how a woman could be created from man's rib and how a snake can talk, but you have to remember that God and Satan are not physical beings. He created our physical world; therefor you cannot prove or disprove his existence with science--something he is not bound by.
    The creation story may in some way be poetic. Jesus often spoke in parables yet he was not lying, but it being completely made up wouldn't make much sense. Genesis repeatedly uses the phrase "These are the generations of..." when introducing an event. Every other book in the bible is an eyewitness account and it would seem strange that Genesis is the only one to break with that pattern. That is just my view.

    Good article though
    With all do respect, there is not a therefore anything. I think that by saying God is not bound by science, so we cannot prove or disprove an existent God is sort of an easy way out. If you believe in God, you would say that because there is absolutely no proof, whatsoever, that he God exists. There really isn't anything to disprove. If anything, one would have to prove God exists, not the other way around.

    The creation story does not make sense, at all. The bible is not different from any other book that is full of stories, poems and prose. Well, I guess the difference would be that people actually follow it. The "eyewitness" accounts in the bible are written from various authors, right? They were not written by the people who where supposedly there. They were written by people years after they supposedly saw what ever they saw. Anyhow, is the creation story not a foundation for Christianity? Even is it is meant to be a parable, does that not sort of change the religion?

    Testudo


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    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    When you reduce God to being an "unreal" being or whatever it ceases to be a real thing. God is real in the same way Alan Quatermain is real or Sherlock Holmes is real. There are "real" things which aren't real. Geometric figures for example are imaginary. But they represent concepts which are sort of real. Like all triangles are 180 degrees, but there's no such thing as an actual triangle.

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    saglam2000's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    We'd all be born with severe birth defects if it was true
    "The Turks are never trapped. It's the people who surround them who are in trouble."Anthony Hebert

    ‎"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens

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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    Quote Originally Posted by saglam2000 View Post
    We'd all be born with severe birth defects if it was true
    Actually, Cleopatra was the product of several generations of inbreeding, and was coincidentally the first competent administrator of the Ptolemaic dynasty in centuries.

    Although that's not to say I'd like humanity's prospects if the Adam and Eve story was true though.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    No.

    Why? Well let's do some bayesian analysis.

    We've got the probability that two humans were the common ancestors of all of humanity (we'll call this hypothesis E for "Eden"). P(E/B+G+O) is low, where B is our background knowledge, G is the genetic evidence and O is the geographical evidence we have collected. G is doing most of the heavy lifting here.

    Now let's consider the probability that christian theism (C) is false given the number of christians theists, their consistency of experience, and the entire set of arguments from religious experience for christian theism, as well as historicity implications for the bible's being false. We'll call historiographical evidence H and religious experience cross confirmation and statistical confirmation S. P(~C/B +H+S)<<<<<1. Whereas P(E/B+G+O)<<1 (and that's being quite generous).

    So clearly, christian theism wins out by the liklihood principle and the story of adam and eve in fact is still very probable despite scientific findings regarding stratiography, anthropological evidence, and genetic and biochemical evidence in general.

    (This is always assuming that christian theism's truth implies biblical literalism, if metaphorical interpretations are possible or probable, this argument in fact reduces the probability of Adam and Eve's story actually being true).

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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Playfishpaste View Post
    So clearly, christian theism wins out by the liklihood principle and the story of adam and eve in fact is still very probable despite scientific findings regarding stratiography, anthropological evidence, and genetic and biochemical evidence in general.
    Surely you are joking, Mr. Playfishpaste!



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    Vizsla's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    The story doesn’t make sense because it was stolen from the Indians and the people who half inched it didn’t understand it.

    http://www.adi-shankara.org/2008/05/...ic-origin.html

    You must be familiar with the story of Adam and Eve which belongs to the Hebrew tradition. It occurs in the Genesis of the Old Testament and speaks of the tree of knowledge and God's commandment that its fruit shall not be eaten. Adam at first did not eat it but Eve did. After that Adam too ate the forbidden fruit.
    Here an Upanisadic concept has taken the form of a biblical story. But because of the change in the time and place the original idea has become distorted-or even obliterated.
    The Upanisadic story speaks of two birds perched on the branch of a pippala tree. One eats the fruit of tree while the order merely watches its companion without eating. The pippala tree stands for the body. The first bird represents a being that regards himself as the jivatman or individual self and the fruit it eats signifies sensual pleasure. In the same body (symbolized by the tree) the second bird is to be understood as the Paramatman. He is the support of all beings but he does not know sensual pleasure. Since he does not eat the fruit he naturally does not have the same experience as the jivatman (the first). The Upanisad speaks with poetic beauty of the two birds. He who eats the fruit is the individual self, jiva, and he who does not eat is the Supreme Reality, the one who knows himself to be the Atman.
    It is this jiva that has come to be called Eve in the Hebrew religious tradition. "Ji" changes to "i" according to a rule of grammar and "ja" to "ya". We have the example of "Yamuna" becoming "Jamuna" or of "Yogindra" being changed to "Joginder ". In the biblical story "jiva" is "Eve" and "Atma" (or "Atman") is "Adam". "Pippala" has in the same way changed to "apple". The Tree of Knowledge is our "bodhi-vrksa" . "Bodha" means "knowledge". It is well known that the Budhha attained enlightenment under the bodhi tree. But the pipal (pippala) was known as the bodhi tree even before his time.
    The Upanisadic ideas transplanted into a distant land underwent a change after the lapse of centuries. Thus we see in the biblical story that the Atman (Adam) that can never be subject to sensual pleasure also eats the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. While our bodhi tree stands for enlightenment, the enlightenment that banishes all sensual pleasure, the biblical tree affords worldly pleasure.

    (From the book Hindu Dharma by the Sage of Kanchi)

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    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    The existence of the varied genetic material completely debunks young earth creationism, if we were all decended from a single mating pair from 6025 years ago all organ transplants would be viable, unfortunately there is too much genetic diversity and most proposed organ transplants are impossible. The archaeological and geological evidence and simple existence of the various "races" of mankind are a cear indication of our shared genetic ancestry being the smalled 70,000 years ago and even then humanity numbered in the hundreds maybe even a thousand.
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    Manuel I Komnenos's Avatar Rex Regum
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    I didn't even know that people considered this anything other than a symbolic story. Even Christianity itself understands this as such, given that there's absolute scientific evidence concerning the evolution of man.
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel I Komnenos View Post
    I didn't even know that people considered this anything other than a symbolic story. Even Christianity itself understands this as such, given that there's absolute scientific evidence concerning the evolution of man.
    40% of Americans believe it, so yeah, a few million people (most american christians btw), many of whom have serious eartly power and influence, I can't really think of anything scarier than a bunch of messianic nut-jobs with their collective finger of the proverbial button.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
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    Fight!'s Avatar Question Everything.
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    An interesting argument to use against it, I think a much better and more solid argument against Adam and Eve is the existence of life millions of years before that of humans, as per the fossil record. Nevertheless, while that argument may be more solid, I am pleasantly surprised at this genome argument

    Oh, and please, let's keep this civil without any insults towards believers in Adam and Eve, capisce?
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    Default Re: Can we agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fight! View Post

    Oh, and please, let's keep this civil without any insults towards believers in Adam and Eve, capisce?
    Civil to the believers, not their beliefs
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