Heathen Storm's Not-so-heavy-cavalry submod V2 (For Patch 3.06 - Updated 10-27-2011!)

[Heathen Storm]

Hey mates! So really this submod is to help educate many of the modern people about some of the warfare of this era - this mod already does such a great job, there's not much to change! But one huge misconception is the idea of the "Germanic heavy cavalry". In truth, heavy cavalry of this era were not what they were of vanilla Medieval's time frame. Heavy Cavalry were essentially just massively armoured men put on top of a horse. The cavalrymen of this time period's favorite tactic was hit and run; due to the couched lance which was developed much later in history, these horsemen didn't have the penetrating power to break infantry formations, nor were their war horses trained to do so. So to get the enemy to move around a bit, they instead threw their spears like massive javelins into the formation, and then mop up the survivors with their sword.

HISTORICAL INFORMATION:
The Carolingian cavalry - under Charles Martel - were certainly known to employ the charging tactics of the Byzantines, Avars and Lombards that were the predecessors of the Medieval heavy cavalry. But when engaged in some of their more recent enemies, such as the Saxons, they were faced with a problem. The Saxons (and many other Germanic tribes) employed use of the Shield Wall formation. The troops would form a battle line 2 or 3 men deep, with interlocking shields at chest- and leg-level. This formation was practically impenetrable; in fact, it was so effective that it was used for thousands of years! However, it had one weakness. When the formation was broken, the individual was helpless. So for that, the "heavy" cavalrymen developed a new tactic of breaking the enemy formations; throwing their spears like javelins or stabbing into the ranks as they rode past the shield. After their spears were gone or they felt like they had come close enough to death, they feigned retreat as many armies had done. When the infantry broke formation to chase them, the cavalry turned and cut them down with their swords (as seen in the Battle of Hastings).

Other changes: Magyar cavalry stats have been fixed with Real Recruitment standards. They are still a tough fight, but not as hard as before!

NOW RELEASED!
Installation instructions:
1) Extract "export_descr_unit" to Last_Kingdom/data
2) Extract "battle_models" to Last_Kingdom/data/unit_models
3) Boot up the game and provide feedback for Heathen

[smoesville]

So is it just the Continental cavalry that will change? Norman/Franks?

[Heathen Storm]

So is it just the Continental cavalry that will change? Norman/Franks?

Yes. I will change the Bodyguards animation to spear, but all other cavalry of these two factions will be changed to javelin. Which is done, now I just need to balance and test it

[danova]

Yes. I will change the Bodyguards animation to spear, but all other cavalry of these two factions will be changed to javelin. Which is done, now I just need to balance and test it

But in this case the early (viking) norman bodyguard will use spear... the converter can't convert the animation!
.

[Heathen Storm]

But in this case the early (viking) norman bodyguard will use spear... the converter can't convert the animation!
.

I believe they only use sword. IIRC

Will you change the model so that they carry Javelins? Otherwise they will throw spears and javelins will fly through the air won't they?

No, because what they threw were actually large spears, so they will carry spears. And its hard to see the javelins/spears anyways

[Martin von Carstein]

You can always ask the creators TGC:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=440077

Milites Normanii (Early knights)

[smoesville]

Yes. I will change the Bodyguards animation to spear, but all other cavalry of these two factions will be changed to javelin. Which is done, now I just need to balance and test it

Will you change the model so that they carry Javelins? Otherwise they will throw spears and javelins will fly through the air won't they?

But in this case the early (viking) norman bodyguard will use spear... the converter can't convert the animation!
.

Would it be completely ahistorical to give them spears instead?

[Captain Zoran]

I'll definetly try this when it comes out.

[Jorge Juan]

Installed the submod and really liked it, it actually demands more focus on your cavarlry than just sending them right in.
Perfect idea my friend.

Just 2 cents..
The minimum amount of ammo is 2 right?, but sometimes i see the same guy launching 2 or 3 "spears".
Also hey tend to go full gallop, stop, wait 4 seconds and then shoot, and not all at the same time..
Obviusly its little bit more complicated than just tweaking some stuff but would be great if thhey could react faster.

P.S.
I know it shouldnt be posted here but officer on units, specially east frankish units is a must, dont they have a proffesional army?

[Heathen Storm]

Installed the submod and really liked it, it actually demands more focus on your cavarlry than just sending them right in.
Perfect idea my friend.

Just 2 cents..
The minimum amount of ammo is 2 right?, but sometimes i see the same guy launching 2 or 3 "spears".
Also hey tend to go full gallop, stop, wait 4 seconds and then shoot, and not all at the same time..
Obviusly its little bit more complicated than just tweaking some stuff but would be great if thhey could react faster.

P.S.
I know it shouldnt be posted here but officer on units, specially east frankish units is a must, dont they have a proffesional army?

Yeah unfortunately that's just a vanilla problem but I found a good - and historical - way around it. I'll post some screens up!
And thanks for your support and feedback mate! I suppose I could increase my submod to add officers and such... but I think that will have to be after my mod is released or the modeling is done. I can model but I'm the only modeler in my mod and i'm trying to finish 200+ units. Besides... I'd have to get Danova's permission to use his units as well.

[smoesville]

I was thinking of doing a unique bodyguard for the Uí Néill which is basically ridire bodyguard with javelin and without shields. I was just wondering if that would be in your opinion way off the mark historically in Ireland? And if it is historical then any suggestions on stats?

[Heathen Storm]

I was thinking of doing a unique bodyguard for the Uí Néill which is basically ridire bodyguard with javelin and without shields. I was just wondering if that would be in your opinion way off the mark historically in Ireland? And if it is historical then any suggestions on stats?

Well I don't know a whole lot about Irish warfare.... I don't know how good Irish horses were in this period. I certainly haven't come across any sources that say they were plentiful, or very good if they were there. So I would say it should most likely be a foot bodyguard. Really I think the only thing that a horse would be used for in Ireland were cattle raids. And if you do use horses - which in my opinion is a bit of a stretch - then they certainly should not be shieldless. I highly doubt any kind of bodyguard would go shieldless unless they were using a 2 handed weapon.

[smoesville]

Well I don't know a whole lot about Irish warfare.... I don't know how good Irish horses were in this period. I certainly haven't come across any sources that say they were plentiful, or very good if they were there. So I would say it should most likely be a foot bodyguard. Really I think the only thing that a horse would be used for in Ireland were cattle raids. And if you do use horses - which in my opinion is a bit of a stretch - then they certainly should not be shieldless. I highly doubt any kind of bodyguard would go shieldless unless they were using a 2 handed weapon.

Yeah i get the impression that they would have ridden to battle and dismounted since the horses tended to be not much more then ponies. Cheers anyway, i'll have to think of something else for a unique unit

[Cincinatus]

Are you going to make a new update compatible with the latest patch?

[Heathen Storm]

Are you going to make a new update compatible with the latest patch?

Right now it is compatible with version 3.06, as soon as the next version comes out it will be very easy to update.

[Cincinatus]

I like these stat numbers for Magyars better. They can still totally dominate a battlefield, UNLESS the AI or player mistakenly chooses to use the horse archer units for melee. I lowered armor and melee numbers more percentage wise, than their archery numbers. They may still be a tad high but they are much more realistic and in much greater danger if the units do not stay away from heavy cavalry or spear men.

I tested the combat performance a couple times. They still do alot of damage and would receive alot less if the AI didn't forget they were horse archers.


type Hungarian Nobles
dictionary Hungarian_Nobles ; Magyar Nobles
category cavalry
class missile
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_spear
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Hungarian_Nobles, 24, 0, 1
;mount heavy horse
mount breastplated magyar pony
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, hardy, general_unit
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 3, cav_composite_arrow, 190, 25, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 6, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 15, 0.4
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 4, 14, 0, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 6
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 2
stat_mental 6, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 660, 155, 80, 185, 660, 2, 240
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models Hungarian_Nobles
ownership hungary, slave
era 0 hungary
era 1 hungary
recruit_priority_offset 0


type Magyar Cavalry
dictionary Magyar_Cavalry ; Magyar Cavalry
category cavalry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Magyar_Cavalry, 32, 0, 1
;mount fast pony
mount nomad pony
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, very_hardy, cantabrian_circle
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 6, 2, cav_composite_arrow, 170, 25, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 5, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 3, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 15, 0.45
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 9, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 2
stat_mental 3, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 320, 130, 55, 135, 320, 12, 130
armour_ug_levels 1
armour_ug_models Magyar_Cavalry
ownership hungary, slave
era 0 hungary
era 1 hungary
recruit_priority_offset 0


type Kabar Cavalry
dictionary Kabar_Cavalry ; Kabar Cavalry
category cavalry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Magyar_Cavalry_ug1, 32, 0, 1
;mount fast pony
mount nomad pony
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, very_hardy, cantabrian_circle
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square

This gives the magyar light horse, melee 3, missile 12, and armor 12. Nobles have 6, 18, and 18. This makes the threat of engaging needlessly in melee combat more dangerous, as it was in real history. When the magyars got caught in melee combat, they were trounced. As the numbers were before, the magyars not only actively engaged in melee against even heavy infantry, spearmen and cavalry, but would win. With slightly lowered missile attack (closer to the best of other units not double as it was about at before), with armor and melee combat numbers lowered a bit more, I think they perform more realistically. BTW it seems my Kabar cavalry stats got cut off, but they are the same as the magyar light horse.

[Heathen Storm]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I like these stat numbers for Magyars better. They can still totally dominate a battlefield, UNLESS the AI or player mistakenly chooses to use the horse archer units for melee. I lowered armor and melee numbers more percentage wise, than their archery numbers. They may still be a tad high but they are much more realistic and in much greater danger if the units do not stay away from heavy cavalry or spear men.

I tested the combat performance a couple times. They still do alot of damage and would receive alot less if the AI didn't forget they were horse archers.


type Hungarian Nobles
dictionary Hungarian_Nobles ; Magyar Nobles
category cavalry
class missile
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_spear
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Hungarian_Nobles, 24, 0, 1
;mount heavy horse
mount breastplated magyar pony
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, hardy, general_unit
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 3, cav_composite_arrow, 190, 25, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 6, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 15, 0.4
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 4, 14, 0, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 6
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 2
stat_mental 6, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 660, 155, 80, 185, 660, 2, 240
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models Hungarian_Nobles
ownership hungary, slave
era 0 hungary
era 1 hungary
recruit_priority_offset 0


type Magyar Cavalry
dictionary Magyar_Cavalry ; Magyar Cavalry
category cavalry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Magyar_Cavalry, 32, 0, 1
;mount fast pony
mount nomad pony
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, very_hardy, cantabrian_circle
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 6, 2, cav_composite_arrow, 170, 25, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 5, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 3, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 15, 0.45
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 9, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 2
stat_mental 3, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 320, 130, 55, 135, 320, 12, 130
armour_ug_levels 1
armour_ug_models Magyar_Cavalry
ownership hungary, slave
era 0 hungary
era 1 hungary
recruit_priority_offset 0


type Kabar Cavalry
dictionary Kabar_Cavalry ; Kabar Cavalry
category cavalry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier Magyar_Cavalry_ug1, 32, 0, 1
;mount fast pony
mount nomad pony
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, very_hardy, cantabrian_circle
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square

This gives the magyar light horse, melee 3, missile 12, and armor 12. Nobles have 6, 18, and 18. This makes the threat of engaging needlessly in melee combat more dangerous, as it was in real history. When the magyars got caught in melee combat, they were trounced. As the numbers were before, the magyars not only actively engaged in melee against even heavy infantry, spearmen and cavalry, but would win. With slightly lowered missile attack (closer to the best of other units not double as it was about at before), with armor and melee combat numbers lowered a bit more, I think they perform more realistically. BTW it seems my Kabar cavalry stats got cut off, but they are the same as the magyar light horse.

Thanks mate! In a few days i'll probably take a look at the magyars and see if i can lower their stats further. By the way, how does this submod work? I need some feedback

[Heathen Storm]

Bump - updated with a change to the Magyar's stats!

[Cincinatus]

It works pretty good and much better with the adjusted stats. Are those the stats like the ones you updated in your submod, or different and if so how? I almost wonder if I should adjust the magyar light cavalry and the kabar horse archer unit so they are slightly different. Maybe give the Magyar native horsemen slightly higher defense and the kabar unit slightly higher attack. Did you like the adjusted Magyar stats? I do wish we could add a light spearmen unit so they can raid cities a lil more effectively.

The Norman and Frank bodyguard cavalry might work better with a base attack of 6 rather than 3 or 4 too. But I have not changed that yet to test.

[Heathen Storm]

It works pretty good and much better with the adjusted stats. Are those the stats like the ones you updated in your submod, or different and if so how? I almost wonder if I should adjust the magyar light cavalry and the kabar horse archer unit so they are slightly different. Maybe give the Magyar native horsemen slightly higher defense and the kabar unit slightly higher attack. Did you like the adjusted Magyar stats? I do wish we could add a light spearmen unit so they can raid cities a lil more effectively.

The Norman and Frank bodyguard cavalry might work better with a base attack of 6 rather than 3 or 4 too. But I have not changed that yet to test.

They're a little bit different then the stats you posted. I increased defense to both a little bit, changed their base sword attack and reduced their bow attack/range. I also upped their charge a bit.

I don't believe I changed any stats for the bodyguards.