Armenian survival

[Shasqua]

I still play 2.02- 2.3 has changes I don't like- and I find victory or even survival nearly impossible with Armenia on M/M. I expand, seize Antioch, improve my economy, and get crushed by a Roman-Ayyubid offensive. I'm always too poor and weak to put up a fight against the endless waves of attackers, and my Crusader allies do nothing while leaving a small army camped outside the walls of one of my cities (Tarsus, I think). How can I win?

[Dago Red]

I got too bored with an Armenia campaign in 2.0 when I could hardly recruit any native units and gave up. Haven't played them yet in 2.3, but in my current campaign they are something of a super power. They expanded east first and past Mardin and north up to their former ancestral lands (don't know how they got them from Georgia who are allies, must have blitzed up fast before Georgia could claim) and they took Trebizond from the Romans. I think they are much easier in 2.3, you might give it another chance.

I also gave them some ERE territories for Adana and when the Turks of Rum attacked us jointly (I am KoJ in this campaign) I gave them 2 Turk territories that I'd quickly seized in exchange for Sis which was no longer their capitol (the AI had moved it further north). I think they have more land than I do now. Also try RBBR, you won't see nearly as many stacks of armies.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

I still play 2.02- 2.3 has changes I don't like- and I find victory or even survival nearly impossible with Armenia on M/M. I expand, seize Antioch, improve my economy, and get crushed by a Roman-Ayyubid offensive. I'm always too poor and weak to put up a fight against the endless waves of attackers, and my Crusader allies do nothing while leaving a small army camped outside the walls of one of my cities (Tarsus, I think). How can I win?

Don't touch Antioch, U need to keep expanding to the west, there are your main enemies.
Firstly capture the castle Vahka by only 5 units of the cavalry in a single turn (enemy himself will come out of the castle and attack your army). Raise taxes in the Tarsus and Adana to the highest level. Hire 2-4 spies and send them to neighboring provinces in the west. Make alliance with Georgia, Jerusalem and Makouria. Build in Adana port storage and open Mediterranean trade.
Secondly capture Sivas by army which conqered Vahka in a single turn. Now U have good treasury.
Thirdly siege Amasia by mounted army in 5 units. Now see if the nearby towns of Rum Seljuks have small garrisons. If so, to raise troops by all your money and don't forget about one catapult.
Fourthly attack Seljuks' towns and castles with small garrisons. Attack on two fronts: from Amasia and from Tarsus. If U took Amasia in this turn, very well, now U have very good bridgehead for your expansion to the west. If not, attack by your mounted army the nearest Seljuks' town with a small garrison and send your foot army to continue the siege of Amasia.
If U did everything correctly, U take 2-3 Sejuks' towns very quickly and fairly easily. After spending all your money only on the troops, attack Seljuks quickly but carefully. Soon Byzantines entered the war, so try to make Rum Seljuks' as your vassals.

P.S. I made it on VH/VH

[Shasqua]

The Turks start out with vast stacks of elite units. Armenia, on the other hand, is broke and pitifully weak in the beginning. Taking Sivas and Vahka will cost a lot of men, and neither settlement produces much money. Then Rome will attack and crush me. I guess I'm just not a very good player except as the Kypchaks.

[Harith]

The Turks start out with vast stacks of elite units. Armenia, on the other hand, is broke and pitifully weak in the beginning. Taking Sivas and Vahka will cost a lot of men, and neither settlement produces much money. Then Rome will attack and crush me. I guess I'm just not a very good player except as the Kypchaks.

historically speaking, armenians were a target and they were weak compared to their roman and Turk rivals. That being said, ur problem is easy to solve. All u have to do is ally ur self with the romans at any cost. Then, gift ur frontier to any faction (preferbly Turk) then watch the Romans and Turks wear out each other while u slowly build ur economy and army.

Make alliances with Koj and Georgia. Also make sure to expand towards the middle east first since it is easier.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

The Turks start out with vast stacks of elite units. Armenia, on the other hand, is broke and pitifully weak in the beginning. Taking Sivas and Vahka will cost a lot of men, and neither settlement produces much money. Then Rome will attack and crush me. I guess I'm just not a very good player except as the Kypchaks.

In my previous post, there are solutions for all these problems

Here early save of my Armenian campaign (VH/VH). Take it and try to win. If you don't succeed, I'll give U later another save with strong powerfull Great Armenia

[Shasqua]

The Romans always reject every alliance proposal. Georgia always gets Ani, Dvin, Yerevan, and other settlements I need, so I won't ally with them. The KoJ tends to get a stack lost in Anatolia, which they use to attack the Romans, so either I ally with the Romans (I can't) or Jerusalem (which always gets WTFpwned by the Ayyubids, realistically enough). I can't not take Antioch, which is the heart of any Armenian economy, but sooner or later this brings me into conflict with the Ayyubids and Abbasids. Last time I got hit by Ayyubid, Abbasid, Turkish, and Roman invasions simultaneously.

My goal is to expand into Armenia proper for sentimental reasons, recruitment of Armenian units, and victory conditions. Ideally, I'd be able to ally with the Romans and the KoJ, attack the Turks, and then retake the Armenian highlands. Thanks for the replies, sorry if I seem too pessimistic.

[knight who says nee]

armenia is pretty straightforward once you know all the tricks.

1.) get an alliance with koj before doing anything, they give it freely so go and accept it.

2.) blitzkrieg as many levant settlements as possible, gather up your family members and any other cavalry units and force the AI to sally (you have no time for a protracted siege, and attacking the walls will only lead to a massacre)

3.) ensure that your cavalry forces are superior to the rebels, when they sally run to one of the edges of the map. Their cavalry will come first allowing you to surround and destroy it. With the cavalry and general dead their infantry are nothing more than victims awaiting the peace of death from your heavy lancers. rinse and repeat, also sack like a motherer as it will give you a vital cash boost to invest in ports and other economical buildings

4.) build merchants wharfs in antioch and your two starting regions. If at all possible take damascus too (usually the crusaders will fail in taking it the first few times so the opportunity does exist)

5.) the ERE/rum seljuks will attack you in your western coastal settlement... sooner or later. Provide it with a good general and plenty of troops (lots of those solid light spearmen - especialy to hold the walls as they are far better than swordsmen at this task - and a few of your elites maybe - dismounted nakharar and medium swordsmen)

6.) and the rest is up to you

aha sorry just noticed that you use the older version, this makes things a little more complicated due to the overpowered ayyubids. Still the basic points remain the same, blitzkrieg with a cavalry centric army to crush the ayyubids and rebels alongside your crusader brethren. If you stand back and allow the ayyubids to destroy the koj - which they always do... quickly as well - you stand little chance. Remember, the more powerful your empire grows, the less likely the seljuks and romans will attack you

[Shasqua]

I followed your suggestions and used cavalry blitzes a lot. Luckily, I'm pretty good with cavalry. I took Vahka, then Sivas, Amasia, Kayseri, and Seleukia, and crushed a strong Turkish army in an ambush. Gotta love Nakharar Bodyguard. I gave Amasia to the Romans in exchange for an alliance. They took Konya from the Turks, who are starting to recover militarily. Then I took Antioch and allied with Jerusalem. I'm fending off Turkish counterattacks and am looking to expand into the unclaimed territories of eastern Anatolia to take back the Armenian homeland. Thanks, guys! I'l see how it goes from here, but it looks good, so long as the Romans don't backstab me and the Ayyubids don't beat Jerusalem.

[knight who says nee]

personally I would have left the turks alone, they have 3 stacks and many of their regions are far from wealthy. If I were you I would have blitzed the levant first

[Dago Red]

Armenia shouldn't be blitzing anyone, and if they are going on an offensive, shouldn't it be to reclaim their lost country??

If the game requires Armenia to play like Germany in 1939 just in order to survive then there's something wrong with that faction's victory conditions.

[Shasqua]

Well, I blitzed the Turks pretty successfully, and shortly after their remnants became the vassal of the Roman Empire, they must've lost their family members because they were destroyed. The Ayyubids often besiege Antioch, but I lift those sieges easily. Eventually, Georgia threatened to attack unless I gave them 200 dinarii. I told them to piss up a rope, then put my elite army of my 10-star Takavor in a forest overlooking the only pass through which the Georgians could attack. They marched towards Malatya, and were savagely bushwhacked by my force. The war expanded to include the Romans, Seljuks, and the newly-united Kypchaks in invading Georgia, which mostly held them off while I took the Armenian heartland cities of Ani, Dvin, Yerevan, and Van before making peace with what was left of Georgia. The Crusader stacks which arrived in the Levant mostly sat around while the Ayyubids overran the Latin cities, and then Rome attacked them. Forced to choose, I picked the extremely powerful, helpful, and threatening Romans over the utterly useless KoJ. The situation overall is pretty good, with my western and northern borders secure due to my Kypchak and Roman allies.

[Yesman101]

Want the best advice in the world on how to win? Don't play as them, then you win by default since you control the gaming disk.

Seriously though, Armenia feels like such a drab, static faction. They only have two viable cavalry units- their heavy cavalry and their horse archer unit. Their Javelins really don't do much damage, even with the armor piercing trait. They also only have one viable archer unit. Their infantry and spearmen are pretty good, and their standard variety of cavalry and archers are enough to get the job done, but their roster is lacking variety- rather painfully.

Back on topic, I have always felt that Armenia was always one of the few factions where diplomacy really came to be its most useful. In 2.3 it would be wise to grab Sivas before the turks can get to it, then go for Vakha. Ally with the Crusader states but also try to ally with the Turks. Fight the Byzantines (Trebizond and Seleuka is in your AOR) and aid your turkish friend by leaking him money, while you conquer the rest of Armenia back.

About antioch, this may seem unorthodox, but gifting it to the Ayyubids for some needed cash is a diplomatic strategy I find solid. It will allow the Ayyubids to keep the crusaders in check and go to war with them immedietly, keeping the situation in the Levant for a stalemate for some time. Even if the Crusaders are your ally, they WILL go to war with you eventually... since you'll just get in their way.

[Shasqua]

Huh. I don't have 2.3. But the Abbasids just attacked. I got tired of fending off Ayyubid human waves and made peace. The Abbasid attack caught me off guard, and I'll probably lose Van, but if I manage my armies effectively, I could take Edessa and Mardin.

[Yesman101]

You should give 2.3 another try. If your having problems with Armenia in 2.02 then 2.3 would make things... easier, with the right plans thought out. Not trying to tell you what to play, but I honestly think that if you want to give Armenia another go, 2.3 is the way, since Christian factions really do have it ALOT easier in 2.3.

[Protector]

Just as a comparison how the AI handles Armenia in BC 2.3
My Armenian neighbor is completely over the top....no fun anymore to continue the campaign...

nearby on the western border they got another 25 stacks like this...about 60 stacks in total close to my border.

[Harith]

Just as a comparison how the AI handles Armenia in BC 2.3
My Armenian neighbor is completely over the top....no fun anymore to continue the campaign...

nearby on the western border they got another 25 stacks like this...about 60 stacks in total close to my border.

wth... wat turn?? usually Armenia dies

[Protector]

wth... wat turn?? usually Armenia dies

You can see in my screenie its turn 157 and Armenia killed about 90% of ERE.

[Dago Red]

As you can see in my campaign with the fog off, Armenia is doing quite well. And with RBBR, you can see there is no stack spam either.

In general this is how they retook their ancestral homelands, 90% of Anatolia, vassalized the Rum Turks and are currently about the 4th most powerful faction. While the ERE and the Rum skirmished back and forth, Armenia headed northeast and began taking independent cities one by one. With Georgia busy with the Kipchaks and Seljuks, Armenia managed to take their ancetral lands back without ever going to war with Georgia over them (some were rebel, and a couple others taken by the kipchaks).

The 4th Crusade actually took Constantinople! And by 1215 or so the Rum Turks had beaten the ERE back in the north/northwest, while Armenia and I (as KoJ) beat them back around Tarsus and Adana after they made some gains.

By 1230 the Turks had seized Constantinople from the latin "rebels" but were very quickly removed from most of the rest of Anatolia when they also attacked an Armenian city at a time when I had visiting dignitaries there (and some hospitallers adjacent to the walls). I fairly quickly took three of the Rum castles with an army out of Antioch and traded the territories to the Armenians in exchange for Adana and Sis (which was no longer their capitol).

Now, 1257, Armenia has re-taken Greece from the Kipchaks, hold almost all of Anatolia with Rum vassals. The screen shows the densest part of their troop movements. If you blow it up, you can tell that even in this active part of their domain they only have 5 significant stacks, and only 3 of them are actually full.

[Protector]

Also like in my campaign Armenia has taken 90% of ERE.