Faerûn[Forgotten Realms]TW - v0.2 released, check the first post

[Vladyvid]

Hekk, thanks for the good work, but before you research more symbols please check the first post to see which factions still need the symbols, they are marked red. Just to avoid doing something that is already done.

I'm telling you this becaue we already had the Red Wizards, Lord's Alliance and Waterdeep symbols before. BTW Waterdeep is part of the Lord's Alliance faction (initially wanted to have Waterdeep, Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate each as a separate faction but later decided they can act as one faction - the Lords' Alliance.

If you want to see those symbols you can browse through the pages of this thread. I will put them all in the first post when we get all the remaining ones done.

[Clansman117]

I know it took a while, but I have some ideas for more symbols. For Aglarond I would say either a yellow or white griffon on a green background. For Damara I think 2 hands holding a bloodstone and a gold cup would be best, although I have no idea what the background should be, maybe red. Rashemen's was hard, but I think either a white stag head or a white mask on a pale blue background would be best. By the way, did you make Sembia's symbol from a picture? If not then I think the raven should be white as the Silver Ravens are a Sembian organization whose symbol was made from the King's Crest. And to Hekk, I also dislike 4th edition, as page 3 shows, I only turned to it in desperation for symbols (and so far it's only proven useful for the Shadovar).

[Vladyvid]

I know it took a while, but I have some ideas for more symbols. For Aglarond I would say either a yellow or white griffon on a green background. For Damara I think 2 hands holding a bloodstone and a gold cup would be best, although I have no idea what the background should be, maybe red. Rashemen's was hard, but I think either a white stag head or a white mask on a pale blue background would be best. By the way, did you make Sembia's symbol from a picture? If not then I think the raven should be white as the Silver Ravens are a Sembian organization whose symbol was made from the King's Crest. And to Hekk, I also dislike 4th edition, as page 3 shows, I only turned to it in desperation for symbols (and so far it's only proven useful for the Shadovar).

I like the ideas for Aglarond and Rashemen. As for the black or silver raven for Sembia, I actually made both black and silver raven symbols because I found a picture of a black raven, and information mentioning silver ravens - the organization.
I'm not sure exactly how should a bloodstone of Damara look like, is it just a red stone or more a gem, or jewel? Also why the golden cup? I will think about some background colour, but the red won't fit it if the bloodstone held by those hands is also red.

I wanted to share with you that I found some information about Tethyr's coat of arms, it's not a first hand information but its reference to Ed Greenwood, who supposedly described that Tethyr's symbol included a sealion. I like this idea, and I will make a sealion symbol (possibly featurning silver chalice(s) in the background). I just want to have it sorted. I found this information on a rpg forums:

Given the plethora of dynasties and rulers that Tethyr has had throughout its history, I thunk that its coat of arms has changed more than a few times. Ed's "Ecology of the Sea Lion" article in an old Dragon Magazine noted that Tethyr's coat of arms featured sea lions.

I seem to recall that Ed's previously told us what Amn's "flag" is but I can't recall where or when offhand.

-- George Krashos

This is the best information I was able to find, and would appreciate if anyone could confirm or comment on it.

Apart from the above discussed ideas we still need symbols for Turmish and Amn. I have some ideas about Amn, but the situation is similar as with Tethyr. Turmish, no idea.

I've been working on the campaign map but since most of the regions aren't yet sorted as far as their details, I want to put in more work before an update will be posted. We are almost done with the symbols research. When its finished I will make new faction icons for the campaign map, place the factions in their starting regions, add more or less accurate city/castle sizes (now they are mostly all egyptian castles with 800 population), and then I will post screenies.

I will soon (today, tomorrow) post 20 factions symbols for the decisive review.

[Clansman117]

Bloodstone is a type of chalcedony, its a green gemstone with red streaks. The Golden Cup is because the Knights of the Golden Cup is an important part of Damara's military. I thought red because the symbol of Ilmater is a pair of hands that are bound with red cord, and he's the main God worshiped in Damara. I think a blue or grey could be nice since Damara is a northern mountainous land. I'll see if I can find a symbol for Turmish and see what I can find for Amn. A sea lion would be really nice to have for Tethyr as it would make Tethyr's unique, I'll see if I can find anything more about that.
Here is a picture of bloodstone. Edit: Sorry, here it is

[vercassivelaunos]

I can't see it

[hekk]

And to Hekk, I also dislike 4th edition, as page 3 shows,

Ah, glad to hear it. Anyone who fights the good fight is a brother of mine! The Spellplague never happened as far as I'm concerned!

@Vlad

Oh, sorry, I didn't see that you already did those icons.

[Vladyvid]

OK so here are the references I used for Sembia and Shadovar.



Now for Aglarond, Tethyr, Rashemen and Chondath:


I tried to make Damara symbol but I don't think that hands holding a bloodstone is a good idea because the bloodstone itself contains too many details. If it was just one solid colour then it's possible.

The map is also progressing, at the moment only the north-central part of the map is not arranged into correct regions.

[Vladyvid]

Hey, tomorrow I have a day off work so I will be (probably) able to put all factions on the map. I want to start working on some skins tomorrow! I've done some skins for my own purposes before but nothing major and nothing public so it will be interesting to see how it works out.

I want to start with bodyguard units:

Purple Dragon Knights - for Cormyr
Blackguard - for the Zhentarim

Question: Knights-Lancers
There is one thing about units, and knights in particular (mounted) that I'm not sure about and it's an important issue - do these knights (or any/most of the mounted knights in faerun) use lances just as the medieval knights used them? Ofcourse not all european knights would only use them but lances were their primary weapon for charging the enemy, so would the faerun's counterparts also use them? Does anyone know if there is textual/visual evidence to support this?

Also, do I get the right impression that overall the cavalry units were not as common as in medieval europe? I'm asking because most accounts of the armies I come across, mention mostly infantry, with cavalry mentioned much less often.

[vercassivelaunos]

I like tha Rashemen symbol.

Question: Knights-Lancers
There is one thing about units, and knights in particular (mounted) that I'm not sure about and it's an important issue - do these knights (or any/most of the mounted knights in faerun) use lances just as the medieval knights used them? Ofcourse not all european knights would only use them but lances were their primary weapon for charging the enemy, so would the faerun's counterparts also use them? Does anyone know if there is textual/visual evidence to support this?

Also, do I get the right impression that overall the cavalry units were not as common as in medieval europe? I'm asking because most accounts of the armies I come across, mention mostly infantry, with cavalry mentioned much less often.

The main force of the military is always the one mentioned often. In reports on medieval you will always hear about cavalry, and cavalry was their mightiest weapon. And you hear much about Rome's disciplined legionaries, which were their most important soldiers. If infantery is mentioned more often in the FR books, it is likely to be the important part of the army.

[Vladyvid]

I don't have a problem with observing that cavalry is not the major force in most of the faerun's armies, but I do have a problem with mounted knights because I don't know if they should have lances or not. I'm sure spears were in use but would there be similar lancer knights as in medieval europe, that is the question.

Would anyone be able to tell whether mounted knights should use lances or swords as their primary weapon?

Another thing - ideas for the campaign name.

Starting date - 1372 - the year of wild magic.

Campaign (ideas) - The Era of Upheaval, The Return of the Shadows

[vercassivelaunos]

They don't use lances. If they did, they would be the major force.
What does "Return of the Shadows" mean? Do you want to include the Lord of Shadows?

[Vladyvid]

I think I found answer to my question, there are lances, for example: (FR wiki)

Lances of Leilon
The Lances of Leilon is a group of warriors that defend the town of Leilon. This force of about 200 men is always on patrol trying to minimize orcs and goblins in the area. The Lances of Leilon are skilled at firing crossbows from horseback. They are clad in chain mail, each carry a shield. They carry lances, crossbows, swords, axes, and daggers.

[Vladyvid]

Progress Update

The map is taking much longer than I expected. I would say I overestimated my patience. It is coming along slowly, but surely. At the moment there is 180 regions and only a few more will be necessary. Im researching what should be the regions I need to add, but it would be probably less than 5 regions. So there is still room for improvement later with more factions included.

The map needs more features, most rivers are not there yet, it still lacks woods or other special terrains in some areas. I will be perfecting all the details during next week, I hope.

There are now 16 factions on the campaign map with correct (according to the research done) campaign map banners and castle falgs, the icons in the UI are not done yet.

I havent started retexturing the units yet, I think I should first focus on improving the campaign features and graphics.

Zhentarim

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Luskan

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Silver Marches

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Lords Alliance

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Elturgard

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Amn

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Tethyr

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Calimshan

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Chondath

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Mulhorand

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Thay

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Rashemen

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Aglarond

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Sembia

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The regions ownership is not everywhere exactly accurate or researched but mostly correct.

Edit = I didnt post Cormyr because it was posted already before, just wanted to confirm its also working in the campaign.

[Briarius]

Whoa! Nice map Vladyvid! My favourites screens are about the Silver Marches and Luskan. Nice mixture of details. (I mean terrain, hills, rivers forests an plains..nice! +rep)

[Clansman117]

I first need to say, fantatstic map! Now, Let me apologise for not posting for a while, its been pretty hectic here. I also need to say that Faerun's cavalry do use lances like the real-worlds. I know this is shown at least in R.A. Salvatore's book of when the drow attack Mithril Hall. In it, the armies of Silverymoon and Nesme are desribed as cavalry forces fighting in typical lance fashion, and so are the drow's cavalry. There are two things you have to remember, one being that some factions would have more or less cavalry than others (for example, orcs and dwarves don't usually have cavalry, but Cormyr and Tethyr use them a lot), and the other is that real medieval armies only had about 1/3 of their forces be cavalry. When you add in clerics and wizards, the percentage of cavalry would decrease, but still be an important factor in battles. I have also (finally ) thought of a possible symbol for Turmish. I think an ornate, almost elvish, helmet would be best. I'm not sure what the colors should be, but I think a brown color would be best. I think the helmet would be best because Turmish is always described as a trade power who craft and use very ornate and well-made armor.

[Vladyvid]

Thanks for rep Briarius!
The map is not yet finished so not all regions have enough features, but I will be adding more in the next couple of days. The most 'problems' I'm having is adapting some of the faerun's geographic features. I mean that for example I want the roads to be mostly the roads marked on the faerun map, and to prevent all regions being connected in one huge road network.

Additionally there are almost no ports/port villages on the map yet, and most coastal cities are not placed correctly at the coasts, but instead they are 1-2 map pixels in land. That was done on purpose and as a temporary situation until all regions are placed on the map.

Clansman117 no need to apologise, that you can find some time to help is already great. Nice that you can confirm the lancers, I was expecting them to be there from the beginning but needed confirmation. This will make working on many cavalry units much easier as many of the vanilla units can be adapted by giving them new textures.

I will add The Great Rift, Damara, Turmish and Shadovar and post another update when I'm done with that. There will be then 20 factions (+rebels) and 2 more can be easily added (at least I know how to add 2 more - saxons and normans). Then I will try adding the next couple of factions (up to total 31), which makes factions discussion still an open debate. For the factions 21 and 22 I would prefer Tashalar and Lapaliiya as they both are in the south (which needs more factions) and they are both close to eachother making an interesting situation for their conflicts.

10 more factions - debate
It's good time now to come with your own ideas about the additional factions. Do you think elvish factions should be added? Or another dwarf or orc faction? Or perhaps the reptilian Najara kingdom? There are many possibilities, the only problem would be that my modding skills don't go as far as to be able to make models so eventhough I would really want to include such unique factions (like the reptilians). Still, the ideas are necessary, so don't take into account if this or that faction is possible just what would you like to see. So here is my list:

- Tashalar
- Lapaliiya
- Najara
- Cormanthyr
- Evereska
- Dambrath
- Halruaa
- Chessenta
- Impiltur
- Grey Orcs (or other orc faction)
- shield dwarves faction
- Hillsfar (or one of the Dalelands)
- Thesk.

This is more than 10 but I want to have a larger selection to choose the best ideas. So what do others think?

Symbols - still need researching
Damara, Turmish and Amn are the factions I'm not yet happy about. Good that there are some hints from researchers like you Clansman117, but they are not always that useful. Many of the faerun's nations are mercantile nations, which doesn't have to be so obviously represented on their faction symbol. About Turmish I have another idea - because of the fact they are not only mercantile but also a rural nation, then perpahs some flower or a plant as their symbol would be nice. I would like to represent the craft and the agriculture using some heraldic symbols known in european heraldry.

[vercassivelaunos]

The faction I'd like to see is not listed above. It would be the "king of shadows". He appears in NWN 2. He is a remnant of old Illefarn, an empire which often had conflicts with Netheril. So they created "the Guardian", a creature connected with the weave, the source of all magical power. But when Karsus killed Mystril, the goddess of magic, the weave diminished, and the Guardian turned to the shadow weave, the source of black magic. So he was corrupted, though he still wanted to protect Illefarn. But its people feared him, and therefore banned him to the plain of shadows. But in NWN 2 he returns (1374 DR; not even 20 years after the time of troubles), and wants to destroy Illefarn's enemies, which are in his opinion all the people living in the place of the Illefarn empire. He fights with an army of undead, which could be "borrowed" by other mods. I'd like it.
btw: You could integrate the Wailing Death in Neverwinter.

I can't see the whole pictures at the moment, so feedback on the map comes later.

[hekk]

Factions that I think could work:

- Citadel Adbar (with a population of nearly 20,000) is supposed to be a particularly strong Shield Dwarf kingdom, with one of the most mightiest fortresses of the North. I'd definitely vote for them, as a side from the Gold Dwarves of the Great Rift, they are the strongest dwarf faction in Faerun, I believe.

- Mithral Hall is another possibility, but it isn't as strong as Adbar.

- I'd also vote for Dambrath, as it's supposed to be quite a strong and influential evil faction in the Shining South, with expansionist drives (perfect for a total war game). They often make raids into nearby countries like Halruaa and Luiren, and sponsor privateers to cause chaos on the seas. If made, they should have powerful Crinti cavalry, and a great range of mercenaries (from lizardfolk, to dark elves). It would be a very unique faction for players to try.

- Evereska is probably the most strongest elf faction still left on the mainland of Faerun. It has been a safe haven for the elves of Faerun for a very long time, and has a population of about 20,000. They would probably have strong mages, infantry and archers, but little-to-none cavalry.

- There is also a high population of surface drow (dark elves) in Cormanthor, who are also divided in several tribes and factions. Most of them worship Vhaeraun, and the strongest faction out of them all is House Jaelre. They rumoured to be close to establishing their own kingdom within the Old Elven Court.

Factions that I think wouldn't work:

- if the date we're using is 1372 DR, then Myth Drannor is not yet recaptured (it gets reconquered two years later by an army of elven crusaders). Cormanthor is essentially a huge no-man's-land/forestland filled with roaming bands of demons and monsters (leftovers of the Weeping War where there was a demonic invasion of Cormanthor), and the elves there are divided by mostly few wood elf tribes and are quite reclusive.

If Myth Drannor isn't made a faction, then Cormanthor should be made into a region that should be very difficult to conquer (like with large bands of monsters).

- Grey Orcs probably wouldn't work either as a faction, as they have no established settlements in Faerun that I'm aware of, and are really just a bunch of roaming nomadic tribes in North Faerun.

//

Btw, we could possibly try to ask some of the other fantasy mods (like Third Age or Warhammer) if we could use their unit models (would be important for elves and dwarves in particular), since we have no modeller?

Also, very nice work on that map!

[Vladyvid]

The faction I'd like to see is not listed above. It would be the "king of shadows".

I think I will rather stick to the factions which represent nations or large organizations like the Zhents.

Factions that I think could work:

Hey Hekk I like your ideas. The Adbar faction (what should be the proper name?) would make playing in the north-west a real challenge but I like the idea.

Evereska - I started prepairing the terrain in the elf-controlled region. It's a valley surrounded by hills and forests, very good defensive position.

In Cormanthor I will keep Myth Drannor as a rebel settlement, but what about Elven Court? Should it also be rebel settlement or should it be removed?

Grey orcs was not an idea as such but more an idea for another orc faction if possible. For example I found information about a half-orcish settlement in Vaasa called Palischuk. Could they be a faction of half-orcs? Or could there be other orcish faction in the north? I'm asking this because the starting location of the Many-Arrows is difficult and will likely prevent them from too much expansion, while it would be cool to have orcs threatening other countries in the north-central part especially.

Dambrath does seem an interesting faction to include, and I think much more than Halruaa - who in my opinion would be best left as rebels (even if we can get the total 30 factions).

The map is looking now much better than what I posted in the last update - I added many more rivers, forests, hills, etc - the last update was more to show you that there are now those 16 factions on the map with new icons, and that most regions are already there. I will be further editing the features and when I add 4 more factions I will post another, much more detailed update.

Btw, we could possibly try to ask some of the other fantasy mods (like Third Age or Warhammer) if we could use their unit models (would be important for elves and dwarves in particular), since we have no modeller?

I will ask some people after I make some units myself, meaning retexture vanilla models. Eventually this mod will need new models for dwarfs or monsters, the elves in my opinion might be done by retexturing only.

[hekk]

Hey Hekk I like your ideas. The Adbar faction (what should be the proper name?) would make playing in the north-west a real challenge but I like the idea.

Thanks.

They could be called Kingdom of Adbar, or Dwarves of Adbar.

Evereska - I started prepairing the terrain in the elf-controlled region. It's a valley surrounded by hills and forests, very good defensive position.

Excellent! It should be a difficult place to invade.

In Cormanthor I will keep Myth Drannor as a rebel settlement, but what about Elven Court? Should it also be rebel settlement or should it be removed?

Myth Drannor and the Old Elven Court are essentially nothing but large ruin sites in this time-line.

I would put full stacks of rebel monsters & demons in Myth Drannor, and full stacks of rebel dark elves in the Old Elven Court. These areas should be very difficult to conquer.

Grey orcs was not an idea as such but more an idea for another orc faction if possible. For example I found information about a half-orcish settlement in Vaasa called Palischuk. Could they be a faction of half-orcs? Or could there be other orcish faction in the north? I'm asking this because the starting location of the Many-Arrows is difficult and will likely prevent them from too much expansion, while it would be cool to have orcs threatening other countries in the north-central part especially.

Hmh, well I also would want to see another monstrous faction. Altough most mountain orcs (common surface orcs) tend to live in caves rather than cities.

Half-orcs of Palischuk could be a possible faction too.

Altough, I've looked into this and found that the region of Thar (north of the Moonsea) might be an ideal place for a monstrous faction. It's supposed to be a large anarchic land, filled with orc and ogre tribes, who fight between themselves.

Possible ideas
- Skullmasher Ogres of Fangjaws Hold led by an ogre chieften known as Guld.

- Orcs of Xul Jarak led by the orog (deep orc) known as Thrull.

I'll see if I can find out any other places for possible monstrous factions.